Astrodienst Forum - Inprimir Página (2023)

This discussion is imported from the comment board on the previous astrodatabank.com website.
http://www.astro.com/imwiki/adb/nat/I036/I036590.cHRVske2cK79G9sDaD_0ZQ.c2atw.250.jpg
As Mayor of New York City, Giuliani was admired and disliked both. His fans like to talk about his tough approach to crime and his fiscal restraint. He cleaned up New York City, making it safer and more attractive to residents and visitors both, they cry. His detractors point to his volatility, combativeness, bluntness, moral hypocrisy, and fondness for the top-dog-in-the-spotlight position. As a candidate for the Republican nomination in the 2008 Presidential race, Giuliani struggles to present himself as the person who can best represent his party and win the election. He touts himself as a strong leader who will conduct the war on terrorism and protect the homeland with every fiber of his being. However, his views on reproductive rights (pro-choice), gun control (in favor), and his marital and extra-marital sagas present problems for the more conservative elements of the party. Let's study his chart this week for a look at what drives the man.

• Giuliani has been married three times and has received plenty of public attention for his extra-marital affairs. Although he inspires loyalty from some, he is known for his volatile temper and his penchant for doing battle. Where in the chart is the difficulty in relationships, marital and otherwise? Where is that famous temper, the compulsion to argue and to punish? Using astrological factors, can you identify what factors might cause it to erupt? Where is the charm, sense of humor, compassion and calming presence that he has displayed at various times throughout his administration as mayor and now as presidential candidate?
• If the power of the Presidency is the power to persuade and influence, does Rudy have what it takes to be President? Where in the chart might we see whether he has the requisite vision, diplomatic skills, and persuasiveness? Does the chart exhibit an ability to bring opposing elements together and work with a divided or oppositional Congress?
• Giuliani has been tough on wrong-doers of all stripes and was a dogged prosecutor of drug kingpins, organized crime mobsters and white collar criminals alike. Where is the magna cum laude lawyer in his chart? Where do you see his zero tolerance for crime and his vow to pursue and prosecute terrorists if he's elected President?
• Contrary to his party's positions on reproductive rights for women and on the right to bear arms, Rudy is pro-choice and pro-gun control. Where is the maverick in his chart? What talents does he have that might convince the Republican Party to make him the nominee? What are Giuliani's liabilities as shown in his chart?

when do you actually answer these questions so that like a month later after we answer these questions to ourselves and try to figure out the chart ....as per your questions.... i need to have the answers to i know for knowledge sake and wisdom sake

I don't know if the US is is ready for another president with Jupiter/Moon conjunction. It's going to take awhile to recover from the one we have.

To Susie: Huh?
To Zart: Interesting point. In Leo, no less. Ebullient, emotional and full of himself in spades.
Sun/Uranus, very independent, which has me questioning the Reps giving him the nomination - that with the Jupiter/Moon - this guy doesn't take orders from anyone. Mars/Pluto, like Hillary and Bill Richardson - all very aggressive/assertive. His combo is more dangerous, I think because of the other duets in the chart.
Question arose awhile back with the Saudis wanting to give money to NYC after 9/11 and Rudy very rudely (funny how those two words work so well together when talking about him) turned them down flat. Do we really want this combination of planets running the show in DC, especially in the area of foreign affairs. Dr. Strangelove revisited?
Saturn on the MC - born for responsibility - can carry a heay load and has done. Neptune on the ASC - who is Rudy really? Great actor, great showman, great politician - all the same thing really. What you see is not what you get and I see a way more lot of ego than I feel is healthy. Can't see him acting democratically at all.
More later, but wanted to just jump in on this one - that Jupiter/Moon is contagious for enthusiasm. I thought we'd never see this chart. Yeah!
To Wayne: Go for it.
To ADB: Kudos and thanks!

Rudy has Sun conjunct Uranus indicating he is an honorary Aquarius and subject to the ups and downs of the avg Uranian. I would imagine that his quirky nature makes him difficult to get along with and needing lots and lots of space, yes, like most Gemini archetypes but very much enhanced with the unstable Uranus energy.
Additionally, with Mars conjoining Pluto that gives him a ruthlessness that's always an asset in American politics. It's seems clear that's what had NYers refering to him as Adolf Guilliani when he decided the NYPD would ticket those who played their car radios too loud for HIZ Honor's likes.
It's what makes him tough on crime and, of course, a stellim in Leo earned him the name of emperor of NYC during the WTC.
However, as any mutable sign stellium may indicate through it's dual nature, Rudy, may have a double standard...one rule for him and another for everyone else. Certainly his love life and career have demonstrated that.
Pray for peace, please? Thanks and love and light to all.

Penelope, interesting comments, a lot to think about, and you have such a fun, colorful way (Pisces effect?) of putting them.
Susie, I don't think there are any absolute answers to the questions ADB poses--just the possibilities that the responders such as yourself or anybody else might come up with.
Regarding the TOB, unfortunately I think we have to take it with a lot of salt, what with all the different versions, including his mother's. Too bad there's no BC.

Thanks, Carol, for the kind words.
This in from my remote location, i.e., a former poster who emails me interesting tid-bits to share with the rest of the group.
1. Last prez before the shrub to have Moon/Jupiter was Rutherford B. Hayes, who was also "(s)elected". Reminded me that Bush said he had political capital, but didn't get the popular vote. Did also say that Gore has Moon/Jupiter, but not elected. Well, he may still run. 2. Supposedly hard on crime, but backed Bernard Kerik who got into trouble because of Mafia ties. 3. NYFD hates him is backing Dodd from Connecticut. 4. One of his kids is not speaking to him.
Thing is - he has that charisma - the Leo enthusiasm is contagious. Caught a bit of him on CNN last night - the Rep runners were at a debate in New Hampshire while Fred Thompson was on Leno finally announcing (another actor, although he admits it). Giuliani said that Thompson played him on Law and Order. Funny line - and pretty much true.
Haven't checked the election day chart yet against his for transits.

There is something noble about this chart, and I'm not just talking about the Leo planets.
Yet another "bowl" chart - so common in those who define their own destiny - and the usual "fame" aspects of Sol to Neptune and Pluto. The guy is a star no doubt, although it might not be so apparent yet, but more will be seen.
Interestingly Neptune being so powerful and prominent shows his "liberal" side - Neptune is beautifully aspected with the one exception of the Saturn square. He's a true idealist and really only his "tough side" has been revealed so far. So if Rudy does make it, and I think he will, we can all expect the skeletons in the cupboards to be found - expect immense and deep scandals though. Saturn on the MC is of course a critical position, but it's in a Mutable so less likely to cause the "downfall" the old writers talked about.
I like his Sun conjunct Uranus. It always indicates considerable talent and intelligence ( especially in Gemini!) and certainly after George Bush the American people will only vote for a person of high intelligence.
I'm inclined to agree with Zart that we may not be able to deal with another Moon Conj. Jupiter President, due to the tendency to want more and get on with the adventure, but this is a much stronger chart than G F Bush's so I don't expect the reckless use of power and utterly stupid decisions that exemplifies our present Disaster in Chief. After the defeat in Iraq, which will cost at least a trillion dollars and possibly twice that, Americans have thankfully turned aside from war for at least the next 30 years. I am not in the slighest concerned with Mars Conj. Pluto - its tendency to violence is exagerrated although it does explain his explosive temper, which by the way is over within 10 seconds.
Rudy's very smart, very savvy, "street-smart", strong-willed but careful and not at all reckless in the way Bush has been.
A fiscal conservative and a social liberal would make a nice a refreshing change from the twit who presently hangs in the oval office.
I have said for a couple of years that I expect it to come down to Rudy and Hillary, and I think Rudy just might make it, by a hair.

I don't know about noble, Wayne, but for me it felt like a happy chart, strange as that may seem. Bill Clinton's is a happy chart - I think it's the Fire and Air combination with a touch of earthiness - Clinton with the moon in Taurus and Rudy with Venus (and Mercury). Now some may say that both men are full of hot air and be correct in that respect. Nevertheless, the fire and air do give a great sense of self and confidence is very strong.
Yes, you've said from the get go that it would be Rudy and Hillary. In some ways they are like the tortoise and the hare (hair, by a) - can't get past the hair jokes with old Rude.
He may pull it off, but I hope he doesn't for the reasons mentioned in my earlier post - for better or worse, I think she is the more stable of the two and would be the better prez. I think his personality was fine for a mayor, even a governor, but getting into the arena where you actually have to work with other governments, he just doesn't have the experience or the personality.

the nyc firefighters don't seem to find much 'noble' about giuliani. http://www.rudy-urbanlegend.com/
another parallel to bushs chart is the tie in with pluto/mercury - a conj in bushs, and a square in giuliani.. for m - his mercury hits the jupiter/pluto midpoint.
i am not sure which one is more dreadful - g or hilary and i don't know what americans did to deserve either of them either.
it will be a nice change when the pluto in leo crowd is out of power.. lets hope for something better in the pluto in virgo group.

I just realized what bothered me about this chart (same with B. Clinton's, except for his M/C) no water - also, Neptune on the ASC. For me a chart with no water suggests no introspection, no real compassion, or maybe sensitivity is a better word. Could explain having his mistress move into the mayor's mansion while his wife and kids were still living there. Deceptive and self-deceptive - acting without a clue as to who might be hurt, including himself.
In many ways, Hillary may well be campaigning against her husband in a cosmic joke kind of way. Could be the way Uranus is reflecting on her Moon in the 7th (using my 2:18AM time).
Don't you just love the way the universe plays mind games on us - that nothing is really outside of us - everything is personal?
My friend suggests that this election will be even worse than the last with voting problems. Seems the Reps are getting a real handle on messing with the voting machines and ballots. Neptune on the ASC.

When I said "also Neptune on the ASC" I meant Bill Clinton has the same aspect. Just to be clear.

1.) " Where in the chart is the difficulty in relationships, marital and otherwise? Where is that famous temper, the compulsion to argue and to punish? Can you identify what factors might cause it to erupt? Where is the charm, sense of humor, compassion and calming?"
7th house ruler Neptune conjunct the ASC and being square Saturn conjunct the MC shows that relationships are all about him (Neptune at the ASC) and he is the ultimate authority in those relationships (Saturn MC).
The other co ruler of the 7th (and possibly the actual ruler of the 7th) is Mars and it is conjunct Pluto. This gives the "famous temper and compulsion to argue and punish". Questioning his authority (Saturn at the MC) would be the ultimate trigger that causes his temper to erupt.
Neptune at the ASC trine Venus in Taurus gives the charm and appearance of compassion. Saturn's authority is the calming factor. Moon/Jupiter quintile Sun/Uranus gives the sense of humor. Moon/Jupiter quintile Sun also helps with the charm as well.
2.) " does Rudy have what it takes to be President? Where is the requisite vision, diplomatic skills, and persuasiveness? Does the chart exhibit an ability to bring opposing elements together and work with a divided or oppositional Congress?"
Moon/Jupiter and Saturn on the MC shows his presidential qualities. Saturn on the MC along with the Mars/Pluto conjunction show that he persuades with force. His Sun and other Gemini planets show the potential mutability required to unite opposing views, but his need to be the ultimate authority (Saturn MC) and his forcefulness (Mars/Pluto) when that authority is questioned will cause him problems.
I think Neptune on the ASC trine Venus means that he can show the charm when he wants to but it is a front to his need for power (Saturn MC) and his willingness to use it (Mars/Pluto sextile Sun/Uranus).
3.) " Where is the magna cum laude lawyer in his chart? Where do you see his zero tolerance for crime and his vow to pursue and prosecute terrorists if he's elected President?"
Moon/Jupiter in the 11th house and Jupiter tightly quintile his 9th house Sun gives his special "talent" for the Law. Saturn at the MC shows he has a need to be seen as the law as well. The 9th house planets help here as well.
Mars/Pluto conjunction sextile Sun/Uranus shows that he enjoys punishing underworld figures yet he is also strangely comfortable with them.
4.) " Where is the maverick in his chart? What talents does he have that might convince the Republican Party to make him the nominee? What are Giuliani's liabilities as shown in his chart?"
Sun conjunct Uranus gives us the Maverick. Sun quintile Moon/Jupiter shows that he has a talent (quintile) for getting the people (the Moon) to believe that he shares their principles (Jupiter). Neptune trine Venus again shows the charm to sell this idea. Venus however is the final dispositor of this chart and it squares Moon/Jupiter.
This shows that his core values (Venus) may be out of sync with the conservative base (Moon/Jupiter) of the Republican Party. Also his Sun/Uranus conjunction in Gemini may make him too flexible (liberal) for the rigid conservative base.
I don't usually question birth times, but I think that his 2:30 time sounds rounded off and I suspect that he is one with the Cardinal Cross on his angles and not the Mutable Cross shown here.
Namaste:)

let me say this,giuliani has a chance to become president as he has saturn ,uranus and sun in gemini conjuncting midheaven and both saturn,and sun are planets which can make you a politician and ruler and uranus is suddenness.Adolf hitler had saturn in leo conjuting midheaven,so does vladimir putin.He also has jupiter and moon whose conjunction gives popularity to indivisual.

no way country of cancer elects a virgo saturn square his gemini sun and square his gemini sol sign (60th harmonic) from his solar and sol 4th house - he showed his double vision and messenger speaker capacity both in this decade.. but is associated with a defeat/weakness (9-11) and america votes for winners/strengths..reagan, eisenhower, etc. - I wish him well but politics needs to be much less.
SOL CHARTS sol astrology paneagle7 yahoo

Lets see what we got here....
Marriages in general are ruled by the 7th house, however, the 7th specifically rules the 1st, 9th the second, 11th the third and so forth...his first marriage was to a second cousin i believe never accepted by the church and amicably dissolved...Fitting that 29 degrees Pisces is there, with the vertex as it gives it that unsanctioned church tinge...it never really went anywhere, the second marriage ruled by the 9th house is of more siginifigance as it produced 2 children..Venus rules the 9th house and is in the pleaides as well as combust the sun....it was a disaster, it lost its head and he ended up with a lover, cancer and a divorce on the front page...third marriage is the 11th house...better with the north node right there and the moon placed in the 11th house is nicely out of square from chart ruler mercury...they have more in common and started out friends as well as meeting in political circles...
Neptune rising gives the sympathetic characteristics, pro gay, pro abortion etc...Mercury ruling the chart with Venus co-ruling it in Taurus is the stubborn personality....Saturn at the midheaven shows his embarassment of his mob involved father, and will also probably keep him from political office, Saturn in Gemini in his chart is too close to the USA's early Cancer and Gemini planets...also Saturn in Gemini is a rise to the top but later a fall, 9/11 made his career, his mayorship was otherwise relatively unimpressive and mostly "fixed" by his successor Bloomberg...
The Sun-Uranus is his rather unconventional views and personality, hes more libertarian than republican, liberal soccially and conservative fiscally...living with a married gay partnership after his wife threw him out...openly dating his paramour while still married and mayor..excellent sense of humor as well, donned drag to perform in charity fundraisers...
The mercury-pluto square gives the acid tounge and fast responses, much better off the cuff than scripted, an excellent orator regardless of his speech impediment (Venus rules the 2nd house of throat and speech and is with Algol), a fierce litigator and a much better prosecutor than defender...mercury-pluto always does better on the offensive..the weak Mercury-Jupiter square also helped as a lawyer..as Jupiter has an affinity with the courts...
Lot of Leo, loves to be in the news, loves to showoff, a crowd pleaser...big hearted (Moon-Jupiter with cor leonis), good for NY but a problem for the US with its Aquarian Moon in opposition...very theatrical
Mars-Pluto gives that temper, but leo is forgiving so he lets things go if someone is sorry, otherwise run....
Crime is really a 12th house affair...the sun in rulership conjoined with uranus shows his erratic relationship with it, as an italian american with a mob related father he shocked his heritage with unpredictable behavior (Uranus)
Mercury-Jupiter contacts are good for higher education...Venus rules the 9th house and despite algol is in rulership and is in trine with the moon-jupiter in leo, thats public prosecutor and successful lawyer...
I dont need to look at the chart to know he likely wont be the nominee, hes too proviniical and liberal for a republican federally, but not in NY where its liberal anyways...for one thing, like Bush the chart doesnt make a full hemisphere so hes not really a "total" candidate more a one or two issue kinda guy...8,9 and 11th houses...terror, law and order and "idealism"...chart is to focused...Neptune rising is excellent for bipartsanship because you can easily muddle ur image, but it lacks guts...Saturn and Neptune angular in a square can make one an excellent shape changer, but for a conservative party it lacks ability....he would have been better off a democrat, which initially he was but switched to win in NY, that wont work federally...
His kids wont help his campaign and consequentially sex got him into trouble...south node at cusp of 5th house disposited by saturn at midheaven, kids wont be responsive, also reproductive rights doom him, the republican party considers that a staple of a candidate for the most part nowadays
Great for a state politician, cant go federal

Noting the predominance of the personal planets placements in Fixed signs in the upper quadrants of the chart, in particular, the ruler of the Ascendant and the Sun, Mercury in Taurus, one must surely acknowledge this man's personal strength and his conviction that he cannot be wrong, even when for expediency's sake he suddenly takes a different tack! (Sun/Uranus in Gemini, Cadent). Mars/Pluto in Leo - a man who can control his anger but it is like a seething volcano. This placement shows the anger and indignation that bubbles over when his desires are thwarted by others, even by a simple refusal from an subordinate. The strong Leo flavour indicates he then feels a sense of rejection. Moon/Jupiter in Leo, Venus in rulership in Taurus, a charmer, he can't resist the power of sexual attraction and with Neptune on the Ascendant - the ladies can't see past that either.

Comparing his natal chart to the transits on 9/11, I think the birth time is actually close-
Transiting Moon conjunct natal MC and Saturn Trasiting Uranus bi-quintile natal ascendent Transiting Orcus conjunct natal Moon-you will learn more about this soon.
The math balances out quite nicely, though I suspect the birth was just a bit earlier.
Weirdly, I have in many ways,creatively, been very inspired by the events of 9/11, and even financially as well- though not in any illegal way. Benefits I continue to reap. The MC at that moment formed a very tight grand sextile in my chart, in addition to numerous other factors. Strange...

i suspect the 2008 election in the usa will be even more polarized then the previous ones with saturn opp uranus.. old verses new and we know what that means... doesn't saturn kill uranus and it takes a few of uranus's younger brothers - jupiter and pluto to knock off saturn? i can't remember the mythology just right but it ain't pretty.. who is going to play saturn and who is going to play uranus in this upcoming election? i hear a few of them chirping 24/7 about law and order.. i would put those in the saturn camp. i find them the scariest. these are the same ones who are interested in letting others freedom and liberty get washed down the ...

Interesting Sandstone, the Sat/Uran opposition will form on election day '08 and there will be 4 more such oppositions in the coming 2 years with the latter ones involved in a T-sqr. Traditionally Sat oppose Uran is "upsets in the status quo."
In Nov 07 RG will have his last exact opposition of Pluto to natal Saturn. I recall this same transit to Kerry's Sat as he was Swiftboated in 04. Perhaps the tables will turn or the R's will eat their own this time around. The major "political researcher" who Rove trained and directed, Timothy Griffin, has signed on with Fred Thompson's campaign. I would imagine with Sen. Thompson scoring his largest campaign contributions in Texas Griffin will be laying his traps for RG, and the financiers of Swiftboaters past would pay for their tactics against RG.
The primaries will be over by mid-late Feb 08. Winner of each party will have been chosen. There's an eclipse Feb 6 at 17 Aquar opposing Rudy's Jupt-Moon just as Pluto squares his Nept/Asc. Tr Merc will be Rx to make things more interesting.
RG's big problem will come as Nept opposes his Moon beginning next April and continuing on thru Nov of 09. Nept has a way of bringing out scandals as it did when it opposed Clinton's 11th hse Leo placements and as we have seen it do to WPE* for the past year. Something about his chart, that Nept on Asc mostly, indicates that what you see is not what you get, emphasized by that 8th hse Merc sqr to Pluto, some heavy , hidden money schemes could be exposed.
Bottom line for me is that we don't have AA charts for neither Hillary or Rudy but these coming Leo/Aquar eclipses strongly suggest strong NY influences. So, I must agree with Wayne, either one by a hair but I don't give Rudy much chance of remaining in the office should he get the successful hair.
His Sun/Uran conj could be the "upsets in the status quo" I see promised in the major opposition next year on election day. Anyone know the last time we had such a strong Uranian as president?
*WPE=worst president ever .

Interesting post Artes: As I said in my original post; I suspect that his birth time is just a bit later. If you cast his chart for 2:37PM you have Mars exactly transiting his IC (attacked at home) the morning of 9/11 at 1 degree and 26 minutes of arc.
It also puts all of his angles on the Cardinal Cross which means that Mars was making an exact 4th harmonic aspect to all of his angles; and to Neptune as well.
I see him as a more Cardinal ASC person, and the Cardinal angles look more like the man I have seen over the years (in my opinion)
All of your other aspects still are there with that time.
Namaste:)

I agree Jotown, not much of a difference in time to make him a Libra rising...which does suit his personality best and can still keep Neptune rising...
A study done shows most presidents have libra rising, off the top of my head, Clinton, Carter, JFK, Truman, Chester A. Arthur, Washington, Wilson etc...
To answer your question LWood it depends what you mean by Uranian, I believe Eisenhower had Uranus in Libra with his sun and moon conjunction....Herbert Hoover had Uranus in Leo with his sun, mars and moon and mercury...JFK had a funnel to Uranus in Aquarius, FDR had Uranus rising in Virgo, Thomas Jefferson had Uranus rising in Capricorn, Andrew Jackson had Uranus rising in Aries, William Henry Harrison had Uranus rising in Taurus, Martin Van Buren has a funnel to Uranus in Cancer....so the list is pretty extensive, unusually Teddy Roosevelt is missing, he has Uranus in Gemini in the third house, pretty unusual for a progressive republican with his nature....
Eisenhower was the last who had his sun conjoined with Uranus and before him was Hoover....both fairly conservative republicans which is interesting in Hoover's case more so than Eisenhower's as Hoovers ascent to the presidency is more unconventional
Most of the Uranus rising presidents were good presidents, Jefferson, Jackson, Roosevelt, WHH died before we could tell, the sun-uranus ones were weaker...Hoover who was outdated for the time and "saved" by Uranus rising FDR and Eisenhower who spent too much time playing golf was simply to be lucky to be in office in a post-war boom and left messes for Kennedy and Johnson..
I dont know if any of these political hopefuls have uranus rising or at the midheaven, but so far no one is blowing my skirt up, thats for sure...

Yes M. That's what I was getting at. He seems much more Libran than Virgo. But having all of his angles on the Cardinal Cross also feels right to me.
One of the main techniques that produces good results in rectification work is checking transits to the angles for key life events. The exact transit of Mars to his IC on the morning of 9/11 tells me that the 2:37 time is very close.

one can't base a rectification on only one transit. times given from memory with a rounded off time to the hour or half hour are always suspect. a planet on an angle always takes on paramount significance and colours the chart in a more obvious way then the rising sign. my 2c's.

sandstone; everything in your post I have already written.
The main point is that in my opinion he looks much more Cardinal and much more Libra than Virgo. The transit just leads me to believe that I am on the right track with the time being later and the ASC being Libra.
The transit merely confirms (to me) astrological reasoning that I already laid out. I would be interested in your astrological reasoning to the contrary.
Namaste:)

The ascendant is not naked, so its sometimes harder to tell, since Neptune rises it colors it....
Ive seen Guliani in person, the reason i take him to be a libra rising is few fold, he has a very quick and prominent smile, hes not at all conventionally handsome man, but his smile is very affable and pleasant and infectious...hes rather short, i wouldn't guess more than 5'7, hes balding and has been for quite a time used to wearing his hair in that odd comb-over for years (baldness is not exclusive to libra, but it is a sign on the ascendant that is more likely to bald, of course other factors are involved), hes not nervous that is to say he doesnt radiate nervous energy such as with a Virgo rising and even though he has a rather thick lisp, its almost not noticeable because of his ease and charm..
Virgo rising is a bit more retiring and Guliani comes across as much more action oriented...hes not at all shy and for someone with a less than imposing appearance hes very confident and charming....libra merely fits better to me..
Even when confrontational and dogmatic he has a very clintoesque way of defusing opposition, such a trait is more indicative of Libra rising...same with carter who was also in actuality a bit ruthless but with the smile and ease comes off "friendly"

M, interesting and (I think) pretty accurate observations on Libra vs. Virgo Asc. Another thing that makes me think Rudy's is Libra is because of something Bill Maher pointed out on his show a while back, i.e., there are SEVERAL different photos of him in drag on obviously SEVERAL different occasions, so it's not just a 1-time thing (such as for a costume party, etc.) as would usually be the case for people in his position. Bill got the impression it looks like he really enjoys that activity in and of itself, and his punch line was something like: Is the country ready for a cross-dresser president? Anyway, it seems to me that that particular trait (if it's true) would be much more in line with a Libra Asc. than a Virgo one.

sandstone and Penelope ... stop it! LOL And don't lose your sense of humor, it would only confirm you both as Liberals.
Giuliani is indeed my boy and he's ready. His only real opposition is Thompson and Romney, both of whom will fade after they peak. Thomson is so full of himself it is laughable. Romney, while an excellent businessman, can't make it in broad America.
Americans couldn't care less, any more, about hair or looks, or lack thereof. Americans are thoroughly fed up with incompetent and corrupt government. They weren't paying attention in 2004, but now they are beginning to wake up and realize that American government, on all levels, is inept, chaotic, disorganized and over-priced.
In 2008 Americans will vote for intelligence and competence, and the buffoon presently in the White House will go with a huge sigh of relief heard around the world.
Also, let's stop quibbling about Virgo or Libra rising. Giuliani has Libra rising, not Virgo, and Aries rules his 7th, not Pisces. His marital problems are due to the Venus with the Pleiades Squaring Moon. Just watch how soft his image will become ...
29 Virgo IS Libra rising (as is 29 Gemini in Hillary's chart IS Cancer rising) - the Signs fuse into one another, they merge, they don't just cut off cleanly at 29 degrees 59 minutes ... There is only a small difference in disposition between one born with Sun in 1 Libra and Sun in 29 Virgo (with due respect to Marc Edmond Jones). The Signs blend into one another ...
I do find it interesting that once again we are seeing astrologers pit their personal biases against astrological reality.
It will be an interesting 2008 and I fully hope that we can all get into the pit again ...

I checked his star parans with Starlight program
STARS ON ANGLES AT MOMENT Alkes - Rising at the Ascendant orb 02 mins 49 secs - To be seen as representing a concept or archetype
HELIACAL RISING STAR Menkar - Rising 15 mins 22 secs before Sunrise - The nihilist, or a person who goes with the flow
HELIACAL SETTING STAR Zuben Eschamali - Setting 19 mins 14 secs before Sunrise - Seeking to influence society from a position of power
PARANS - BY ANGLE RISING - Stars of Your Youth El Nath as ª Jupiter is On Nadir orb 00 mins 26 secs - Breaking new ground artistically, or as a humanitarian El Nath as ¦ Moon is On Nadir orb 00 mins 47 secs - A fighter, or one who knows the cruelty of life
CULMINATING - Stars of Your Prime Dubhe as ¨ Venus is Setting orb 00 mins 02 secs - The healer who seeks the well-being of others, and/or a lover of children - Circumpolar Zuben Elgenubi as § Mercury is On Nadir orb 00 mins 32 secs - A spokesperson for a group, or a body of knowledge Antares as ª Jupiter is Setting orb 01 mins 07 secs - The engineer, a person who can envisage a structure, material or social Deneb Adige as ¨ Venus is Rising orb 01 mins 35 secs - The poetic soul struggling to live in the mundane world - Curtailed passage Mirach as © Mars is Rising orb 01 mins 39 secs - A thrill-seeker, a person absorbed with their own needs Sadalsuud as ¦ Moon is On Nadir orb 01 mins 56 secs - Being able to hold onto the good feelings or things of life
SETTING - Stars of Your Latter Years Deneb Algedi as § Mercury is Culminating orb 00 mins 01 secs - The scholar, the one who is seen to be wise Hamal as § Mercury is Setting orb 00 mins 37 secs - Intellectually probing Hamal as ª Jupiter is Culminating orb 00 mins 51 secs - The independent, successful pioneer, or the headstrong individual Zuben Eschamali as ¨ Venus is Rising orb 01 mins 00 secs - To feel strongly regarding what is right, and what is wrong Castor as © Mars is Setting orb 01 mins 06 secs - A person who plans, a thinker, a solver of problems Sirius as ¥ Sun is Setting orb 01 mins 06 secs - Sudden success which can burn Alkes as ¨ Venus is On Nadir orb 01 mins 20 secs - Someone with strong social values Bellatrix as ¥ Sun is Setting orb 01 mins 44 secs - Successful, but via the hard or physical route
ON NADIR - Stars of Your Foundation Scheat as ¨ Venus is Setting orb 00 mins 45 secs - Independent ideas concerning fashion, relationships and social customs Diadem as © Mars is Rising orb 00 mins 57 secs - Hardship, sacrifice of oneself for others Sadalsuud as § Mercury is Setting orb 01 mins 03 secs - Honest and direct in one's thinking Zuben Elgenubi as ¦ Moon is Rising orb 01 mins 31 secs - A person who wants to give aid to others Markab as ¨ Venus is Setting orb 01 mins 40 secs - Strong personal and moral philosophies, to be unchanging in social ideas
The combo of The Sun in parans with both Sirius,Bellatrix,Moon and Mercury in paran with Zuben Elgenubi,Zuben Eschamali as heliacal rising star,Venus in paran with Zuben Eschamali,Moon in paran with Sadalsudd,Jupiter in paran with Antares,Venus in paran with Alkes,and Moon and Jupiter in paran with El Nath look very good and even formidable for politics.
the good thing about parans is that they don't require a birthtime unless you want to look at planets on an angle.

wayne, americans need to have a lot of humour having a bozo in the white house for the last 7 years with anticipation of another one to follow. your idea that >>in 2008 Americans will vote for intelligence and competence<<< is hilarious, if it wasn't so sad also.. why would this election be any different then the last few? the anointed leaders are brought to the public via a plutocracy run by the wealthy.. the media( or a corrupt privately owned voting box) will decide who does or doesn't get crowned and they will be in servitude to the highest bidder $ as they have been all along.. it doesn't take a bin laden to tell america they are run by a industrial military complex gone berserk. this same machine will be sure to keep the engines running in the direction it wants. the american political process has become hollywoodized to grave extent, and that is how americans get their "news". it is a society turned in on itself lacking direction and having to start wars in faraway places to get an inkling of how misguided it has become.. some still can't see it.
lwood, i think it was the pluto to his sun that got kerry as much as the pluto to saturn transit, but one would not think that a favourable transit to have to work through during an election campaign.
jotown quote >>sandstone; everything in your post I have already written.<< glad you left out the operative word "here" at the end of your statement.. no rectification is based on one transit off an event which is the only 'transit' you have offered "here"... it is fine to hypothesize. if one is going to do it with visible characteristics and basic astro lore i like m's explanation. nowhere did i say i was in disagreement with anyones hypothesis either, just pointing out rectification isn't done with one transit..
the pluto square giulianis ascendant area around the election would suggest a win for plutocracy.. i haven't considered all the candidates astrologically as yet..

sandstone I agree that we have an oligarchy in place, and have had for at least 200 years. I am probably as jaded as you are on this. Most Americans don't know that the whole system is rigged in favor of the elites. Americans actually believe they live in a democracy LOL!
At least the Europeans are honest about their class-system, but Americans mostly don't even realize they are offered two sides of the same coin, and the people who control the project couldn't care less who gets into power because what they want to happen is what happens regardless. The elites control the media, which feeds the public everything they need to remain pacified. The elites control international commerce, currency supply. They desperately care that most American "citizens", who have no rights under Eminent Domain by the way, stay stupid and intoxicated on alcohol, drugs and the ridiculous crap on TV. By the way did you know that fully 50 percent of the American population is on one or other type of prescribed sedative?
Americans fight over scraps fallen off the table while the true manipulators hang out in exotic places and on their private jets and their huge yachts and laugh. Why wouldn't they?
By the way, although I'm not a member of the elite, I know a few of them as acquaintances. They laugh at me of course, quietly behind my back, but I pick up a few things here and there ...
Power to you sandstone - I didn't think you had sussed out that America is run by about 10,000 people, most of whom know each other ...

The USA is a plutocracy in many ways.....
However, if you look at elections past think about the fact that the president of the USA has only once been Catholic, never black nor Jew, Asian or Hispanic and virtually always white male protestant..the top .5 percent controls 98% of the wealth..
However, we have made strides, to think that Guliani an italian catholic from a modest immigrant background could have gotten as far as he did is very impressive... I do not agree that he will ever be president Wayne and I am not as liberal as some astrologers here...
Guliani is too provincial and too liberal to get the republican nod, Romney looks the part but he is a mormon and the south will never really go for him, so even if nominated hes going to have a rough time winning...I like McCain but at 71 he is to old and he knows it...Thompson is a little too late in the draw but it depends on how the rest of the bunch fair to see how he goes...
Political elections are actually won and lost by a few select swing states, the south is solidly republican and barring a realignment will stay that way, the coasts are solidly democratic...for the most part the west is conservative and the midwest more liberal so what ends up happening is states like PA, Iowa, New Mexico, Florida, and Colorado that decide elections
The political landscape changes very quickly, i remember when just a few years ago it looked like the Democratic party was on the rocks and now it looks like the Republicans might be...the country feels more comfortable with Republican presidents but right after a problem they switch temporarily to a democrat to sort of even out the problem...
From 1900-2007 the presidents have been mostly Republican with a few Democrat interlopers and those came mostly because of disaster...Mcklinley, Teddy Roosevelt and Taft followed by 8 years of Democrat Woodrow Wilson because Roosevelt and Taft split the republican party....then Harding, Coolidge and Hoover all Republican until the depression which forced a Democrat into office...FDR and Truman both democrats but only because of a Depression and WW2....then Eisenhower to round out the 50's...Kennedy and Johnson is an interesting party of history, the election may have been stolen from Nixon but with Vietnam and the 60's it was enough to keep Nixon and Ford in the white house till the late 70s when Carter took over and that was only because of Watergate...then is Carter who i think may be the worst president of modern times and that disaster switched us back to republicans Reagan and Bush senior....only after a recession did Clinton take back the white house for the Democrats...now we have this genius in there for 8 years because the Democrats couldnt field a decent person in the last two elections, Gore shot himself in the foot and Kerry was as dynamic as my right foot...
The political landscape now is one of the most interesting in modern times, seems to me a bunch of second raters in the ilk of the Harding years, with a bunch of swing states deciding who will run the show in 2008...
History has taught us its best with a Republican president and Democratic Congress, problem is we now have to clean up years of stupidity and the candidate we need is probably too liberal to be elected, so we have a bunch of compromisers..
The country is really split in three, with liberal northerners and conservative southerners with the swing states going back and forth, but i disagree Wayne, I think the real power of the country is the media...they control everything..
Its hard to be objective in politics since we all have our leanings, I just think Guliani is too liberal to win the nomination as a Republican, plus twice divorced, pro-gay, pro-abortion, the south will never go for that

Carol,
Thanks, yes libra all the way...too friendly for a Virgo rising, quick smile, easy going...Virgo risings can be friendly too, FDR certainly was, but he was also much more mentally puzzling and devious...different temperment...Virgo rising usually never says exactly as he thinks, Libra can be full of it but he comes across as persuasive and friendly, with Virgo you know hes holding something back...Guliani doesnt come across that way....hes also not prudish at all, Virgo rising's usually appear to be even if not

I am uranian myself with Uranus trine Midheaven, Uranus trine North Uranus Node,Midheaven conjunct South Uranus Node,and North Uranus Node square Ascendant,and they don't keep me from being tactful most of the time.
I only gave my opinion about a combination of parans. The interpretations were with the parans previously listed. I just gave my opinion that the combination of parans were good for politics....especially Sun in paran with Sirius.....the stars of Zuben Eschamali are good for social reform. I have Zuben Eschamali in parans with Venus myself,and I am interested in advocacy/activism.
Any ways....that's all I have to say. I just wanted to list the parans for people to see and see what they think about them....especially people who are very familiar with Bernadette Brady's fixed star paran system.

Ummm.....I am scratching my head here. How is his Virgo Ascendant being ruled out because he's too friendly??? The 2:30 PM chart has Venus trine Ascendant,and that is similar to Libra Ascendant because Venus rules Libra. Venus trine Ascendant can indicate a charming,sociable personality. Moon conj and parallel Jupiter in Leo in 11th house can be very outgoing,friendly. ,,,,heck 4 planets in Leo in 11th house can be too. He also has Sun conj and parallel Uranus in Gemini in 9th which can be very communicative and can make links on an international level. Gemini is communicative any way.
Another thing.....7th house ruler (Neptune) is conjunct and parallel Ascendant. 7th house is associated with Libra. Therefore 7th house ruler conjunct and parallel Ascendant is similar to Libra Ascendant. So with Venus trine 7th house ruler-Ascendant conjunction,it can seem like he has a Libra Ascendant. Also...Neptune is in Libra and it's in his 1st house,and so Libra influences the 1st house any way. The Ascendant,Venus,and South Node are trine each other,and that can indicate a person who is very sociable and can make contacts with others. Actually North Node is conj Venus/Ascendant midpoint. That can definitely be good for being sociable,making contacts and connections.
Rudy Giulani has almost all his planets in Southern Hemisphere...which can indicate extraverted person. 2 of his big 3(Sun,Moon,Ascendant), Sun and Moon are in extraverted signs,and that can indicate his being extraverted,outgoing.

Uranian doesnt particuarly mean anything, i think its good for an astrologer but ive seen good astrologers without it as well...
I agree with Jotown that libra rising just seems to fit better and a 7 minute stretch is not that unlikely esp as he was born during the war years...his appearence, his general personality, his extreme action is more warranting a libra rising than a virgo, esp at 29 degrees, its virtually in the next sign anyways...
Historically, it can cause problems for a candidate with uranus is with the sun...Hoover's was in leo and he was seen as pretty obstinate and behind the times...a personality profile of hoover actually suggested a brilliant mind in engineering and during WWI he was responsible for feeding many european countries, but he was socially retarded, ate at meals and only chimed in when he knew something about the topic which was generally science related and spoke to his wife in chinese when they didnt want people to understand...his presidency ended up as a disaster...
Eisenhower had the sun with uranus and the moon...most people saw him as an affable grandfatherly type, but a more in depth biographical look shows a short tempered sort who spent WWII romancing his Irish born driver and who preferred golf to dealing with problems...his wife totally ran the show and he actually did the family sewing and cooking...he spent his presidency of columbia university more interested in the sports teams than anything else...
Interesting also is FDR's vice president for his third term, George Wallace who has the sun-uranus in libra as well, he actually was a brilliant scientist who developed forms of hybrid cotton, but also ended up to be entranced in mysticism and a communist sympthatizer which made the party dump him for roosevelt's fourth term...the public thought him also a social misfit...
This pattern is actually similar to Guliani, the NY public loves him because of his strange ways...marrying a cousin, preforming in drag to launch tourism, carting off the homeless to belvue, openly cheating on his wife and moving into a house of a gay couple, but like the fascination with all sun-uranus types, its a little bit too much for the public at some point...eventually hoover was found to be an excellent engineer and humanitarian but his early stardom tanked...Eisenhower became thought of as a doddering old foot..hence the quote when someone said he died, "how would anyone know" and wallace originally as a progressive new dealer ended up thought of as a loony...
Guliani is fun i agree and personally i like him, but there is very little change the american public is gonna elect him, esp from a conservative party, hes a great novelty, but president....cmon

M you should review the meaning of Uranus when it's in significant position or in conjunction. It usually imparts 3 general types. Original people, engineering types as Uranus often relates to "systems" and this can apply to social systems as in the case of FDR, and true non-conformists. Sometimes they are a combo of all three. I suppose there is the "my way or the highway" types too, or misplaced independence, unable to cooperate with others.
I found Eisenhower's Uran placement unique. He did envision and initiate our Interstate highway system mostly as military infrastructure. You will note most big interstate hubs are close to major defense establishments. He was particularly astute at strategy. He listened to few when formulating his battlefield plans and would pour over them for long hours. Giuliani is particularly gifted with adversarial talent and this was surely helped with an 8th hse Merc which enjoys digging up and investigating. And there's that 7th hse Uran acting up with all his dalliances and marriages.If elected he could be the first president who divorces while in office because one keyword for strong Uranus influence is willfulnes, it's the higher octave of Mars.

Raymond Andrew's; interesting comments.
My feeling about the ASC has to do with the angles in general. Giuliani comes across as a very Cardinal personality and since his only Cardinal planet is Neptune we have to look elsewhere to account for that.
The energetic underpinning that the angles provide is right up there with the Sun and the Moon in my opinion. When all four angles are in the same modality their energetic imprint is very strong.
This is the main reason I feel that he has a Cardinal ASC.
It is very cool to see some new faces posting (as well as some old ones)
Namaste:)

Raymond wrote: "How is his Virgo Ascendant being ruled out because he's too friendly??? Venus trine Ascendant can indicate a charming,sociable personality. Moon conj and parallel Jupiter in Leo in 11th house can be very outgoing,friendly. ,,,,heck 4 planets in Leo in 11th house can be too..."
Your point is well taken, Raymond, and thanks for your other comments too. Also, my daughter is a Gemini with a Virgo Asc., and she's always been an extremely cardinal (leader, initiator, etc.) type as well as very outgoing, social, etc. There are really just too many other factors involved to try to guess what the Asc. is. As I said at the outset, sure wish we had that BC.

Stay tuned... Rudy is in for a strong dose of Pluto asskicking; Like Cheney, the veils are being ripped off his image, including all of his close associates

His out going personality, plus charm I see in the 11th house, the house of friends, which can also mean the group, the public, aquaintances. He has Pluto conj. Mars in Leo so initiation of change and leadership can be seen here. Also his NN is sitting there. The warrior, the leadership, he has a mission.The ruler the SUN is found in the 9th house conj. Uranus. His beliefs are part of his drive, having Uranus there he is freeing himself/or making changes from the beliefs of his family(father being an ex-con.With Jupiter/Moon hes expanding on what his mother taught him? Also mercury in the 8th house is where he is a smooth talker, I think bacause Aries is ruling that house that might indicate more mars like initiation in relationships, the 3 marriages. Plus venus in Taurus whatever he values correlates to his sense of purpose for life. Hes probally very controlling in relationship and feels justified in his choices.But at the same time with Neptune in Libra in that firt house also ruled by Venus he is learning to listen to others, to actually hear them from there point of view. This is probally a struggle as he use to projecting his vision out to the public. He is learning to balance(libra)what others needs are with his own vision.
Peace

The cardinal......as for action,initiation, Mars conjunct Pluto is a powerful,energetic aspect. He also has Sun parallel Mars which is like Sun conjunct Mars and has affinity with Sun in Aries. That can indicate action,initiator. Mars is also conjunct and parallel the North Node too. It can indicate using,action initation to make connections.
Venus trine Ascendant and 7th house ruler Ascendant are in affinity with Ascendant in Libra which is also a cardinal sign.
Midpoints:
Mars conjunct Sun/Ascendant can be initiator,action oriented Mars semisquare Sun/Midheaven can be initiator,action oriented

raymond, all excellent comments and proves how astrology can be taken a number of different ways, which leads me to conclude much of it is useless as well. much of what many may know of him is based on his public persona.. i doubt anyone here has interacted with him long enough to get to know him personally.. consequently all the astro comments are conjecture and nothing more.. it also raises the question of significance of rising signs, verses planets aspecting an angle, which i keep on repeating.. how does one weigh the different parts of astro 'theory' to come to some conclusion on the chart? i think your comments directly address this by pointing out an alternate view with different astro tools used by many astrologers today. thanks for participating.

At the risk of inciting another argument about a topic I raised on Ammachi's thread - I think that if we use the M/C (which is the 10th house cusp as well in Placidus), we would get a perhaps more accurate reading of the man, since that is his public persona.
With the majority of the planets above the horizon - he pretty much is what you see is what you get. As I mentioned in an earlier post, like Bill Clinton, this chart consists mainly of Air and Fire - a lot of hot air. And I like Bill Clinton, but his feeling of our pain was bull. If he had any concept of our pain, or his wife's or his daughter's, well... That's another story. Still, Giuliani went the same route with his family. He wanted what he wanted when he wanted it and the rest of the family be damned. In a private person, none of this would matter, but neither of these men are private people, so we all had to deal with it.
My guess is that he is Libra rising, 29th degree or not - Virgo is much more pragmatic. He would still have his ruling planet(s) (if using the 10th) in earth signs, but the chart reminds me of a hot air balloon that can explode at any moment. Mars/Pluto in Leo.

sandstone wrote: " it also raises the question of significance of rising signs, verses planets aspecting an angle, which i keep on repeating.. how does one weigh the different parts of astro 'theory' to come to some conclusion on the chart?"
Yes I have heard you repeat that question - and it is a good one - and it begs an answer. Every professional astrologer has to deal with this question at some point, and they have to find a way - through their techniques and practice - to reconcile that question.
Now most good astrologers that I know have a variety of ways of looking at a chart so they have more than one lens to check against.
Also; most astrologers put a lot of emphasis on the ASC and its ruler and they feel that those two elements are very crucial in accurately reading a chart. This is always an issue when you have an ASC that is in extreme late degrees of one sign or in extreme early degrees of another.
Since in the system I use the ASC is a major indicator of ones life theme obtaining a satisfactory (for me) answer is very crucial.
That is why I pointed out the transit of 9/11 to indicate another reason I felt his ASC was in early Libra and not late Virgo. I have created a Solar Fire file that has all of his career milestones in it and if one takes the time to study it they would see that progressions and transits to the Cardinal 1st degree show up in almost every one of them.
This gives me a lot of confidence on what I already surmised. Now if I were counseling Mr. Giuliani it would be very important that I was sure about his ASC and his angles. It would be very important to be as certain as one can be about his ASC and MC and their rulers; in fact is of paramount importance if one is in the business of giving life guidance to another based on their astrological knowledge.
I would be confident in basing my astrological guidance for the person in this chart on the idea that they indeed have a Libra rising and a Cancer MC; and yes this makes a huge difference in making prognostications for this chart.
If anyone would like the Solar Fire file (version 6 with life events) I would be more than happy to share it with you.
Namaste:)

Sidereally speaking I think Guiliani has a good chart for leadership... better than Bushlings in most ways. Interesting to note that both Bushling and Rudy have Sun and Saturn in different signs but contained within the same house in their respective charts. Then as I mentioned earlier the Jupiter/Moon conjunction thing... I am wondering if the people that are responding the Rudy are doing it out of some sense of familiarity... kid of a bizarre nostalgia for the guy standing on the rubble with a megaphone.
Rudy of course would be more transparent... he has a healthy 12th. Venus is well positioned( Ruler, Triplicity, Term, Decan) in the 9th in a tight trine to his ASC...also his sNode... could make him little superficial on one hand... or on the other hand is the reason he is so comfortable with his past. Unlike Bushling I doubt we will see him to the prodigal son routine... and he sees no reason to apologize... or public repentance to garner popularity.
His Mars in Cancer is the weakest link he could grind an axe and not use the gifts of a 9th house Venus Saturn and Sun... but with Sun/Jupiter there in the 11th he might be a better team player... or desire to be seen as a team player... and improve diplomatic relations... possibly even get the country united in fighting the war on terror... rather than filling the economic coffers with never ending shopping trips... while he and his staff took care of things.
If he were to become president Aries Mercury could cause some problems making his shoot off his mouth impulsively... especially with Mars in Cancer... on the other hand his willingness desire to represent the group it may be just enough to keep the US from coming off to recalcitrant, humbled and weak a from the massive diplomatic screw ups of his predecessor... if he can somehow distance himself from Bushling's failures...

M, that was quite a post and you obviously have studied your US history.
Since you have eliminated just about every Republican who is running I wonder who is your boy? Tancredo? Surely not Paul! I would be interested to know who you think will get the Republican nom, and why ...

Thanks Wayne,
Astrology is a theory, history is the real application, so to be a good astrologer to some extent you need to be a good historian, presidential history because its seen under the microscope is a good way to look at astrology in practice...
Astrologers should be above politics, but no one really is, my political leanings are moderate, I dont mind most of Guliani's politics, but for the current republican party he is merely too liberal, the reagan revolution transformed the party and at the current time it wont support so liberal a candidate even if he is right for the country....
The Democratic party is more likely than the Republican party to support a moderate candidate, even if the party is still left of center, they learned something (or at least i hope so) since Clinton who was a moderate in leftist clothing...Humphrey, McGovern, Mondale and Dukakis were too liberal to be elected...Carter was a liberal disaster and only got there after Watergate...contrary to most people and my generation i rather liked Nixon's policies even though he most certainly was demented...
George Bush Sr was a really a gypsy moth republican or a new england republican with moderate views, but after Reagan he didnt stand a chance and he couldnt hold his party under his belt as opposed to this blasted twit who thinks hes a cowboy even though hes born in Hartford, CT..
Guliani is a NY Republican which is not a national republican, they are very different, you cannot win in the south primary wise with his views, the moral majority will not support it..his personal life is a NY tabloid, its not gonna happen..and there is alot of leo in this chart so he would be happy as a VP, so i doubt hell settle for it, but if hes smart he might consider it..
The field is eh at this point..BTW to add what someone said, i forget who, the jupiter-moon conjunction is always excellent for a politician...Guliani has one, so does Edwards...W Bush has it...off the top of my head so does Rutherford B.
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wayne - ron paul is the best of the republican bunch.. too bad many of the repubs (or is it the bozos at fox trying to convince them otherwise?) are too stupid to see it..
jotown, thanks for your comments. we all see astrology differently- what it can be used for and how to use it too.. for every question that i can find a satisfactory answer to, another few raise their head and that is part of the dynamic with saturn in sag perhaps, or at least with me. one can never stop acquiring knowledge, and at the same time one needs to act with the knowledge one has in the present. as for my use of astrology, it is very selfish and mostly for self understanding.. understanding others is very helpful as well, and i find astrology quite helpful in both these regards. most folks aren't interested in getting councelling with astrology. i offer assistance to friends and family if they express an interest and it is always on my own time when i have some time to consider it.
i suppose i am telling you all this to point out how i use astrology in a different way then you might.. confidence is a funny thing.. if we are reaching for it to overcome a weakness, then it is helpful in pointing out our weaknesses, if we are comfortable enough with ourselves. if we have it while being comfortable without having all the answers, i think that is best. i think a false sense of confidence is the worst position to be in, as that leaves one in a position of thinking they know something when in fact they don't.

Does anyone can find out the date his father Harold died in 1981? It will help me in rectification of the chart. Thanks

Sandstone wrote: "Ron paul is the best of the republican bunch.. too bad many of the repubs...are too stupid to see it."
YES!!

I have a personal interest in Rudy's chart, since I was born about 11 hours after he was, and share most of the factors in his horoscope. (He has the Moon in Leo. I have it in Virgo. Our Ascendants are different, and yes, I agree that his Ascendant is most likely 00 Libra, because the 00-degree cardinal axis is always found prominent in charts of people who have a world stage--the "world" of course, being however one defines one's world.)
It should also be noted here that Chris Dodd, another presidential contender, was born May 27, 1944, just a day before Rudy.
The two most powerful aspects in this chart are the Mars/Pluto conjunction which sextiles the Sun/Uranus conjunction. The sextile, I think, tempers that Mars/Pluto, which is the equivalent of Mars in Scorpio. It brings analytical ability (Gemini) to the power of Mars/Pluto, which, taken by itself, can manifest as ruthless. That's not a bad thing at all when terrorism is involved, but I think the Sun/Uranus sextile keeps Mars/Pluto from being any more grim than it has to be.
The Leo in his chart would give him a lot of need for the spotlight. I frankly prefer leaders who enjoy the limelight, since that's where they're going to be anyway. Rudy's Sun/Uranus also falls at 8-9 degrees of Gemini, forming a conjunction with Aldebaron, one of the four royal stars of Persia. If you subscribe to the Gemini rising chart for the US, this conjunction is on the USA Ascendant.
Something that is overlooked in this chart, but which I'm keenly aware of since I have it in mine, is that, even with four planets in Gemini, Rudy has Mercury, Gemini's ruler, in solid, stable Taurus. (John F. Kennedy, born May 29, 1917, was also a Gemini with Mercury in Taurus.) That stabilizes the flightiness that a lot of Gemini can sometimes mean. He's much more conscious of his effect, and is likely to be guided by the practicality of Taurus when exercising the Gemini energy. Gemini does convey a lot of communication ability.
That Taurus Mercury, however, squares a number of his Leo planets, all the while sustaining the Gemini influence.
Venus square the Moon may be the most difficult aspect you can have in your personal life, though probably more difficult for a woman than a man. I have never married, having miraculously been spared the consequences of a lot of bad judgment where relationships were concerned. I think too that Sun/Uranus conjunction denotes a highly independent streak that makes compromise difficult, and when you throw in a Mars/Pluto conjunction--well, I think it speaks for itself. (My Venus is precisely at 00 Gemini 00 squaring the Moon in Virgo.)
A lot of Rudy's leadership motivation may come from a factor not visible in this chart--he has the pre-natal solar eclipse at 5 Aquarius, opposing that Mars/Pluto conjunction. I think this is a hallmark for his leadership abilities--showing that Mars/Pluto energy can be activated considerably when it is for the good of the group (Aquarius). Mars/Pluto can also stand up against dangerous elements.
Mars/Pluto can give backbone to a chart heavy in air signs. A lot of Gemini always reminds me of that line from Walt Whiman's poem (Whitman himself being a Gemini), "Song of Myself": "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself...I am multitudes, I contain millions." That is the downside of being a Gemini, in that you can see--and sustain--many different viewpoints.
Gemini has two other problems in life: (a) they are chameleons, and can be anything anyone wants them to be; and (b) they know a great deal about a lot of things, and rarely focus on any one thing. This also means they take a vast wealth of things into consideration when making decisions. Mars/Pluto, to my mind, is the saving grace that keeps this chart from being butterfly overload.
This particular Mars/Pluto conjunction has a history that should be taken into consideration. Rudy was born right before D-Day, June 6, 1944, the beginning of the end of World War II, a time for heroes and liberation.
(Mars/Pluto did not CAUSE D-Day, but both the conjunction and the event rose in tandem with unseen energies, of which both events were merely reflections. [For more insight on this, read Ray Grasse's The Waking Dream, one of the best books out there on symbolism.] I can't say whether the conjunction becomes embedded throughout one's lifetime with the other events that happened when one was born.
[continued in next posting]

Michele Adler makes a good point that 0 deg of cardinals(ingresses)have extra power, I agree. Sandstone with the question of rising signs vs. planets aspecting angles also a terrific question. Living in Europe I don't know much about Guiliani except from 9/11. However, the argument about the ascendant degree I find not so important. Taught in the old school of astrology more than 30 years ago, we were told anything over 29 degrees was always into the next sign (in this case 0 Libra) and that for every sign you round up (29 deg 47 mins) IS in fact 0 Libra.....if it had been 29 Virgo 4 for instance it would be 29 Virgo (hope this makes sense, rounded down in other words.) To give my take on Sandstone's dilemma above, I would unquestioningly champion planets aspecting asc/mc as being far more visible in the character and lfie of anyone - in fact it is almost possible to do a chart without the signs (in my opinion only) when you have such powerful, up front messages. Of course no aspect can be considered alone (i.e. the chart must be integrated) but planets to angles - which are, after all, the most intensely personal pointers of the chart - I consider have far more weight and power in a life. I think Guiliani's Sun 9, Moon 11 point to someone of vision and social conscience, and definitely wider social issues. Of course he is volatile with that Sun Uranus conj but Venus as the vocational indicator, rising ahead of the Sun/Uranus conjunction shows that he is fundamentally someone who finds points of agreement between people, or that may be one of his main aims. Also, importantly, if indeed he has Libra rising (assuming nobody pulls another accurate brith time out of the bag!) Venus is the ruler and massively important with the conjunction to Sun/Uranus which sextiles the Mars/Pluto which sextiles the Moon/Jupiter all benasp the ascendant. The man heaves with charisma and masculinity I would think, and is innately competitive, hoswever masked it may be. I did his midpoints on the present chart. He has two very significant ones . Sun/Moon = 15 Aries 33 also Nep/Node, Mars/Saturn,Node/Asc, Node/MC fall on that degree. Very many of his midpoints conect with the asc and mc (also Chiron which I do not use but anyone who does will find it significantly pointed up midpoint wise in this chart...I do indeed feel that someone with nodal connections to asc/mc are destined to play a pivotal role, however small, in defining the society they live in. The other midpoint at 3 Taurus was Sun/MC = Mars, Sun/Asc = Mars, Pluto Node = Mars (showing connections with crowds and groups... all these Marsy midpoints show a virile confident man while the following show a tender side. He has Venus/as= Node, and Venus/Neptune=Node - Venus as chart ruler would give him considerable charm, almost too much in these combinations and the Venus/Neptune points to disappointment in partnerships. Despite the prominent Neptune he has no water in his chart, so basically is a conqueror, withsome earth but Neptune gives the appearance and ability to empathise, but is this the same as feeling? yo would have to ask his partners.....I do think he is happy in male society but can never resist a challenge. In my own practice I find Libra is romantic but does not like getting its hands dirty, and the baser elements of marriage and kids may not appear interesting to a lofty, futuristic looking person like this. Moon/Node=Saturn also points to relationship difficulties and a certain inhibition or prvacy - perhaps he is too extrovert? I know the election is in November next year (sorry, have not checked date but think it is second week?). I did the briefest of checks and see the prog. Sun will conjunct Pluto in the run up to the election but passes before the election - what does this mean? any guesses? I have no idea. Transit Pluto will be on the IC square Neptune and opposite MC & Saturn which for my money will not see him be elected President. In Europe people remark on how fantastic NY is since his big clean up, he did remarkable things there in a tough environment. I would say he is deeply democratic as a person but there is much noise and heat about the chart which has the lovely veil of Neptune covering it until you look there....interesting man though, you would remember meeting him!!!!

michele thanks for your interesting comments. your comment on the prenatal eclipse and emphasis on the mars/pluto conj is particularly interesting. i haven't done much work with prenatal eclipse data. i read elsewhere a few months ago that gwbush had a prenatal station of mars at 14 cancer. it isn't something i would ordinarily look at, but after having the idea (prenatal stations) introduced to me and seeing how the symbolism for bush seems quite apt in explaining a more martial nature then one would perhaps get given his natal chart, i started examining them in my own chart and have extended out from their... coincidentally giuliani has a prenatal mars station at 4 gemini, along with a prenatal station of mercury at 6 taurus.. when you put those spots and energies in the chart, it tends to strengthen the martial and mercury/pluto dynamic in his chart that much more.. add to it the prenatal solar eclipse at the mars/pluto and one gets a broader view on giuliani which may explain him better. it is an interesting coincidence that both bush and giuliani have a prenatal station of mars so close to their natal sun. perhaps it is less problematical for giuliani with the 9th house sun then with bush and his 12th house sun. bush seems to have been particularly headstrong in going in a direction that appears full of obstacles and complications (12th house stuff).. does this mean the foreign policy agenda of giuliani will be likewise extremely headstrong and confrontational? i think it does.

Sandstone, I also think those pre-natal stations mark powerful points in the chart. John F. Kennedy has an interesting Mercury/Uranus station/direct/retrograde in his chart. The day he was born, May 29, 1917, Mercury went direct, and Uranus went retrograde. His whole life was marked with Mercury/Uranus symbolism. He inaugurated TV debates (Mercury/Uranus)among presidential candidates; had a sudden loss of siblings (a sister and a brother both died in plane crashes); challenged the scientists to put a man on the Moon (Mercury--flight; Uranus--technology), and died suddenly (Uranus) while riding in a car (Mercury). Those degrees probably assumed double importance, since they would have been in his converse and regular progressions. (Stations beyond the normal converse secondaries are still important, and the degrees significant, and they will fall eventually in a person's minor progressions.)
Re Bush, I find it interesting that, in a way, he had TWO pre natal solar eclipses. It's rare, but in June, 1946, the month before he was born, there were two solar eclipses, one in 6 Cancer and one in 8 Gemini.They would have manifested in his converse progressions at age 8 (approx.), and age 38, but don't hold me to those ages since I'm perusing an ephemeris with eyes that sometimes play tricks on me. I seem to remember reading that he was about 7 or 8 when his younger sister died.
Michele Adler

thanks maggy and michele for the additional comments.
maggy, it's encouraging to read someone else who views planets on an angle as being more visible in the character, and i especially like how you mention how the chart has the 'lovely veil of neptune covering it up'... exactly..
michele, i haven't looked much at the prenatal stations either, but that is quite interesting on kennedys chart and prenatal stations as well.. i am not sure how to view the prenatal solar eclipses in bushs chart, but i am impressed that you mention considering converse sec progs in the same sentence.. i always think i am out in left field looking at converse progs and directions as i never hear of anyone else using them.. nice to know someone else looks at them!

Off book for a moment, but I would like to update you on a small aspect of my research of the planet(s) Orcus, and I think you will find this intrigueing.
One notebook contains the charts of creative writers, film directors, and actors only. I separated only those charts of directors and writers (fiction and poetry comprising at least half of their printed work) and separated them further by those who have a distinct and personal style construed as controversial, extreme, or just plain 'weird' by the public, or at least two of the above. I separated 48 charts, and studied Mars-Orcus aspects with the following orbs- conjunction and opposotion- 5 degrees Trine- 3 degrees Square- 3 degrees quintile- 2 degrees Septiles- 1.5 degrees 45 and 135 (8H)- 1 degree- curiously there were none of these. 40 and 160 degrees- .5 degree- two of these.
Twenty five of the 48, more than half, had a Mars Orcus aspect within the above parameters. I doubt this level will hold up, but it is quite interesting. And curiously, of the twenty three that did not, 7 had Orcus angular, defined here by ten degrees into 12th, 9th, 6th, and 3rd, or five degrees previous. Of course, this is not enough data to establish anything yet. This was just my first 'artist' notebook, of which there are four more with many more charts. It appears that a similar trend exists among actors. However, its the transit notebooks that will roll your socks up and down. More on this, including much astronomical information, coming soon to your inbox.

Sandstone, do you also happen to have Aspects to Horoscope Angles by Vivia Jayne? she and her husband, Charles Jayne, did a lot of research on aspects to angles, I have a second edition booklet published by the Astrological Bureau in New York copyrighted 1975....highly likely to be out of print. But it really brought angular planets to life for me, this particular publication, though I do not use the vertex as they recommend, having found it a sort of dumb note personally.... here is the Neptune description which seems to fit Guiliani to a "t". "...emotions are more active and closer to the surface. They usually project an air of democratic sympathy.....there is an intangible, fey-like quality which leaves an elusive impression on others. Because of their manner and subtlety they are difficult to understand or pin down...." Anyway, for those interested, try to get hold of this because it is enlightening and those with angular planets are of course very conscious and immediately responsive to the issues of the angular planets (of course these planets are CONSCIOUS as well, i.e. not being tucked away in a cadent house, for instance, they can be "lived out" in the world). How often have you thought someone was a Gemini only to discover they have Mercury on an angle,(or aspecting it closely) or getting a Scorpio feel from someone to discover their prominent Pluto?)....... I think Guiliani's mother was a tremendous support tohim (Moon/Jupiter) but that his charisma comes from his dodgy dad! At any rate at the time he was born they seemed happy with each other - the parents - with the luminaries in good aspect, so G has some sort in innate balance here (adding to the Libra impression perhaps?)

>>I havent seen Huckabee's chart, i do know he has a sun in virgo,<< M
First very admirable analysis of candidates M. And is true about keeping our political preferences out of the way for as Liz Greene remarked that planets don't prefer anyone, they just do their cycles around the Sun. We hang our politics upon the planets.
"Huckabuck" as we Southerners affectionately call him was born on Aug 24, 1955 in Hope Arkasas, same birthplace as Bill Clinton. Huckabuck has a 5 planet stellium in Leo but alas, has Jupt sqr Saturn in Scor. I do not have a time for him but I've done a superficial rectiication putting his asc in mid late capricorn maybe even early Aquar. He is an ordained Baptist minister. Was a radio dj in his youth. When first in office he weighed 300 lb and went on a crash exercise diet plan to slim up. Now preaches the healthy living gospel. He is borderline diabetic.
His greatest opponent is the conservative The Club For Growth due to several tax increases enacted while in office. More would have been enacted if the state leg had not stopped him. I think the best summary of him is that he's a social conservative, an economic populist. He once did mass marriages on the state Capital grounds...some thing about reaffirming marriage vows. Kinda wacky but fitting in a So. Baptist sorta way.
His wikipedia history is almost correct but it was recently discovered that personnel at in Ark government office was traced as a source that was "cleaning up" his wiki bio and history. Most of the cleaning up was done about his promotion of the parole of convicted killer Wayne Dummond, who after being paroled went on to murder again in neighboring Missouri. Lots of fodder for ads if he is nominated which is very doubtful. Maybe a good VP choice for Rudy.
Interesting Huckabuck ascended to governorship via a forced step down by a sitting guv when Huck was Lt.Guv.
The only poetry I could see in a possible Huckabee nomination is that Hillary must deal with two men from Hope. _

Michelle, my browser doesn't allow me to place a star next to a comment so here is a * for you. Your prose is outstanding and I do look forward to seeing more of your well reasoned commentary.

Thanks Lwood,
The problem is this and in this i go off of astrology and onto more historical tangents....Divorce hurts, so does being a catholic...and heres why...
Ronald Reagan has been the only divorced president, he was divorced once and remarried. The first person to run as a divorcee was James M. Cox a historical footnote whose claim to fame was he picked a young FDR as his running mate...he got his butt handed to him by Harding, Harding, that just shows how unpopular he was....Since then while a few first ladies have been divorced, only Reagan has been elected...Dole was divorced once and he lost, so was Kerry and he lost...so despite the fact that divorce is rampant nowadays, historically speaking it hurts...and where one hurts, two hurts alot more, to americans, despite their own cluttered personal lives, it shows some degree of a lack of commitments, ironic considering many people nowadays are divorced...but dont ask me how the electorate works...
Second is being a catholic...Despite being a fairly popular religion, there has only been one catholic in office, Kennedy and he got in in a cliff hanger...Since then no one else has been elected as a Catholic, even though Kerry ran as one, he lost...
Third of course is being a northerner...no northerner has been elected to office Kennedy in 1960, thats almost 50 years...and of course is the fact that no mayor has been elected to office without having attained higher office first, ever...
As such, twice divorced, catholic, northerner, mayor has a very little chance of getting the nomination, you dont have to use astrology to figure this out...I put my chips on Huckabee over Guliani
It is true that there is always a first at some point, but the combination of Guliani's traits and positions makes a nomination very unlikley, im not going to say impossible, but id bet on someone else...the south and moral majority control the GOP, point blank

I did want to add that Michele's point about JFK is very interesting...
He did have his mercury stationary direct...Ive read up on him a bit, although i dont find his particularly as interesting as some of the other president's, some of what you said is very important...
The Kennedy family for all its hoopla were actually awful students and never read anything, except JFK...he was very sick as a child and as an adult and was voracious reader...thats a stationary mercury...i and my brother have it ourselves and we constantly read, even at meals...thats one of its traits, your brain is constantly spinning..
Mercury and Mercury-Uranus played an immense part in his life...even though his mercury was in Taurus, a not all together "mercurial" sign, it was very prominent...notice in his chart Mercury rules the house of sex (8th) and hopes and dreams (11th), isnt that what Camelot is all about?
Death and Idealism are Kennedy's legacy...as an actual president he was pretty impotent with a southern controlled legislature...Death was better to him than life ever could have been...thats Mercury stationary, a very interesting phenomenon and very well seen in a president's chart

I don't see Rudy as a man with a 0° Libra rising. His pretense is too deliberate and he manipulates with a sense of control rather than blowing people away with flighty unpredictability. Please understand that this is not a criticism of Libra... but 0° Libra as with most Cardinal signs at critical degree are hard dogs to keep under the porch.
I think the reason he can be perceived as having Libra overtones to his demeanor is because Venus is the strongest planet in his chart dignified via Ruler, Triplicity, and Term at 5° Taurus. Venus is also in a tight trine (less than one degree) to his ASC and his nNode forms the midpoint between Venus and ASC by less than one degree. Libra rules his 2nd house and the thus his values show up with heavy Libra Venus leanings. Venus is the natural ruler of the 2nd and he is a about letting his values shine... Sun in house and sign ruled by Venus.
His Taurus Sun is in the 9th and his Gemini Saturn is intercepted at the MC but still in the domain of his Venus ruled house. This would influence his persona where he could make a business presentation out of his philosophy.
He has an early degree Virgo ASC (4° 30') with a Gemini expressed Saturn in tight conjunction to his Gemini MC and square his ASC. The ASC is dignified via Mercury Term and Sun Decan thereby providing another avenue for Venus to express itself via his first house.
When I looked at this chart I entertained only the tightest aspects... 3° or less to see which aspects appear the strongest. By Triplicity his ASC is ruled Venus, Mars, Moon.

Note to previous post- Sextiles were also used, orb 2 degrees. 80 degree aspects were also accounted for, but none were found. Basically harmonics one through nine. The orbs were not set with any mean in mind, but to be not too tight or too loose for the lower harmonics.
As For RUDY, Zart and Jotown may well be right, but I'm sticking with an ascendent in the early moments of the last degree of Virgo- It is still a cardinal point, which at least seems relevant here, and works the math better in transits, esp. the 9/11 event. Specifically the relationship between T Uranus and T Mars on that day. Virgo rising is very different from Virgo Sun or Moon; these people tend to be a bit shiftier, and in general not nearly so agitated by detail, which is really only true if the Virgo Sun or Moon is unaspected or in a distanced duet. In addition to creating many successful con men, Virgo rising makes for people who are particularly interested in taking an aspect of something and expanding it proportionally so as to take advantage of it, and/or people involved in it. People like Rudy, Steve Jobs, and Richard Nixon are or were quite good at this. It also fits with his lawful crusade, as Virgo rising can strive not only for both sides of the bench, but the aisle as well.

M, I suggest studying the Nov 08 election day chart. There's many traditions in America which from time to time get upset. Saturn oppose Uranus, exact on Nov 4 indicates an upset in tradition. We see many potentials for that: A Catholic mayor from NYC and leading in R polls, a popular woman leading in D polls, and a black man just behind her who was recently endorsed by the most popular woman in America, Oprah.
While commenting on JFK his father managed him into the presidency because his older brother was killed in WWII. The oldest brother was poppa Joe's first choice.

I agree LWood,
However, the American electorate while open to new things, is consistent about others, its not Guliani's Catholocism that hurts him, its his two divorces and his more liberal views for a Republican as well as his lack of federal experience, its not being African-American that hurts Obama, its more his lack of experience and his dyed in wool liberal views that makes him unelectable..
Hillary is the favorite...female is absolutely fine at this point, more moderate than Obama politically, lots more experience, no Divorce, the south can stomach that...

Hi Artes Perditae. iI am looking at his chart from a Western Sidereal perspective...
It was Virgo that put the scales in the sky.

at this point in history it would be uranian for the usa to vote in a women as president.. it would be uranian for the repubs to win a 3rd time after all that has happened.. it would be uranian for a long shot to win... anything unexpected would be uranian.. perhaps others here have some views on this...
maggy, thanks for the book suggestion. i am interested and have ordered the book, as i have read some of jaynes work, and never knew his wife also wrote on astrology. i think he is an excellent astrologer.

Again I will say; if you study his career transits and progressions you will see that "exactly" one degree of Cardinal signs is emphasized. This includes the birth of his children and his weddings and divorces.
I have offered the Solar fire file that has these life events to anyone who wants to take the time to study them.
I put much more weight on the facts of the stars rather than the opinions of astrologers.
Every one is entitled to an opinion but if he were my client and I was being paid to rectify his chart the astrology would rule the day and I would be very confident in 1 degree Cardinal for his angles.
Namaste:)

Serious question...who gave the stars their facts?
Until Astrologers there was no Astrology. There were only heavenly bodies.

Interesting point Sandstone....
Uranian is a break from the norm as i understand it, erratic, bizarre, unusual...uranian would be electing a twice divorced mayor or a women or african american....it wouldnt be reelecing a republican after two terms...Bush senior followed Reagan...even in the Democrat circle Truman in his own right followed FDR..maybe it would be a third party candidate although i just dont see that as likely, even if Bloomberg runs...
It might be worth looking at the sky patterns of elections of 1920, where the first divorced man was nominated and the dark horse candidate actually won (Harding)...the 1928 election where the first catholic candidate was nominated (Al Smith), he lost...the 1940 election where the Republican's nominated Wendell Wilkie who was a complete dark horse and , he lost...of course the 1960 election where the first Catholic won (Kennedy) to see if there is anything Uranian on those election or nomination days and see what pattern develops
A piece of astrological history...Harding's wife along with two other women whose husbands were in the running for Republican presidential nominee in 1920 visited a famous astrologer in Washington D.C. a madame something rather, i dont recall the name...and she said that Harding would be nominated and elected...pretty good astrology considering Harding was a complete dark horse and she said he would win the election but die tragically....now considering Tecumseh's curse death may have been easy to predict but not the presidency persay
But does Uranian necessarily mean a first?

m- i don't know if uranian means a first..i doubt it.. it means suprise or shock more then it means first to me. these are just ideas to consider... one thing i would say though is that something uranian ought to be connected to the 2008 election...
perhaps someone who lives or is knowledgeable on the usa political process could explain how it is decided which date the elections fall on ( so i can look at election 1920 for example)? it isn't always november 2nd, or 4th or whatever.. how do they decide this?
marjorie orr has some very interesting comments on her site from a week or two back about this upcoming election in relation to the charts for the 2 different parties - rep and demos. i am not going to do her justice by quoting her out of context, (and i don't have those charts on this computer to examine myself) but she seems to lean towards the repubs chart as being more favourable 2008 then the demos.. without looking at them, that 'feels' right to me.
jotown, you have offered a solarfire file for giulaini.. i'll take it. you can send it through my e mail-thanks! if 1 degree cardinal is emphasized and that is the most prominent planet aspecting an angle at the same time, how do you know that it isn't connected directly to the neptune position as opposed to the rising degree?

There is no set day for a nomination for a party....
However, U.S. election day is simple, its the first tuesday after the first monday in the month of november....so if the 1st of November is a tuesday....the next tuesday is election day, make sense?

got it. thanks!

moon jupiter conj in capricorn the election chart for 2008 would suggest a conservative candidate has a better chance.. i think that is one thing marjorie mentioned which makes sense.. also the repub chart has a jupiter in crappy..

if i was bright, i would do these all in 1 post.
nov 4 2008 11:51;45 am( noon chart) washington dc has 19 cap rising with jupiter moon close by... furthermore - venus saturn square in the chart and mars neptune square in the chart... the uranus saturn opp are the outer planets that contain them all... the chart favours saturn from my pov given my read on the chart.

Interesting take on the issue Sandstone. Looking at Rudy's chart do you think he'll be the one? I wonder if it is possible that the Republican success could show up as not losing anymore of the Senate... or Congress. You know make it impossible for a Democratic "majority" to get anything done. Could fit with the Uranus rebellion you're predicting.

zart wrote; "Serious question...who gave the stars their facts? "
Serious answer... when a planet is in an exact aspect to an angle in a chart that is a fact; an astrological fact.
From these exact aspects astrologers derive meaning.
Namaste:)

Just so u know sandstone....
There is a polling place in New Hampshire, that opens at 12:00 am (midnight) on tuesday, November 4. 2008...i dunno which city in new hampshire offhand or which chart is best to use, but that is the earliest...
FYI, Harding was the only president elected on his birthday

From these exact aspects astrologers derive meaning. so it is like I figured... it is the Astrologers that make Astrology... including the calculations and data base of interpretations contained in all software designed for that purpose.
I think it has been demonstrated that can vary and if you use software about the best you can say is the I find interpretation put forth by so and so or such and such compelling.
Ergo: bottom line... you can't separate the element of human thought from Astrology. That isn't indicative of a problem... just another consideration in the discussion... and noting the obvious that all Astrological interpretations occurring on this site originated from someone's mind... deduction, conjecture... whatever....

Zart; There are time tested methods that astrologers have used for centuries to rectify charts. If you believe that astrology works (as I most certainly do) and you have a grasp of a working system; you just do the astrology.
There are time tested principles that are used in rectification. Using those principles it is clear that 1 degree Cardinal is very important in this chart. This tells me something very important.
I would again be more than happy to send you the Solar Fire file so that you could validate this yourself. I would then be more than happy to discuss your conclusions with you.
I welcome anyone to question the astrology that I put forward but I do not welcome having to defend astrology in general and it seems that is what you are asking me to do here. Perhaps I am not reading your intentions correctly.
Namaste:)

jotown, if 1 degree cardinal is emphasized and that is the most prominent planet aspecting an angle at the same time, how do you know that it isn't connected directly to the neptune position as opposed to the rising degree?

Below is what I posted recently on my own website in answer to someone else's comment. Tho' does of course depend on the Repub/Democ charts being sound. Democ: 13 May 1792, Philadelphia, PA. Repub. 6 July 1854, Jackson, M.I. Both 12 noon. 'Think you may be right about the Republicans holding on, unthinkable as it was until recently. Jupiter is in Capricorn over the election which rather favours traditional values, commerce etc and on election day it will be beside a Capricorn Moon hovering close to the Republican chart's Jupiter in Capricorn opposition Cancer Sun. They'll have a bumpy ride into the election with the jolting Saturn Uranus opposition just off Neptune which is very highly strung and insecure a month before the day itself. That may be because of a major economic hiccup but oddly enough when in crisis, country's tend to hang onto what they know, even if what they know has caused the problem in the first place (viz Bush's unbelievable Second Term election). What really clinches it (if these party charts are right) is that the Democrats have really sticky transits next year with Neptune square Sun and conjunct Pluto from March onwards. And the exact transitting Saturn Uranus opposition at 18 degrees is only one degree away from their 17 Mars in Virgo which is highly accident prone, gloomy and bad tempered. Plus Mars in transit squares their Pluto in the few days after the election which looks highly frustrating.' www.astroinform.com

sandstone wrote: "how do you know that it isn't connected directly to the neptune position as opposed to the rising degree?"
Good question; Because the life event transits focus on the MC and the IC; not the ASC. It just so happens that with this chart all of the chart angles are at the same degree.
One example is his sons birth. In that chart his progressed Moon is at 1 degree of Pisces. This means that it is exactly trines his MC and sextiles his IC (the parental axis) at 1 degree of the Cardinal signs.
Namaste:)

Well said Marjorie...
I looked at the Democrats and Republicans party charts, the Democracts can be called "the party of the people" because the moon in their chart in Aquarius closely conjuncts the moon in the USA's chart...
What is even more interesting is that the Republican chart has the moon at approximately 24 Scorpio, I don't have the exact birth times, but Mike Huckabee, Fred Thompson and Mitt Romney but all have late Scorpio moon's in close conjunction with the Republican party moon...Guliani of course has his Moon squaring it...so the field for all of them is open if nothing else...

Marjorie looks right....
The Democrat's Jupiter/Neptune in Libra is squaring the Jupiter/Moon in Capricorn on election day...showing a clash between ideals, values and what the public wants...
There is a virtual exact square that day of Mars in Scorpio vs. Neptune in Aquarius, I use the 12:00 am chart for that day as thats when the first polling station opens...which puts both of those planets at the angles from the 4th to the 7th respectively..seems to me like some sort of ideological war...
In addition, the Sun at 12 Scorpio is trining the Republican party's Sun-Neptune trine from 14 Cancer to 15 Pisces respectively...the Democrats Sun/Moon are not doing much on election day...and as Marjorie pointed out Saturn transiting 18 Virgo is right on top of the Democrats 17 Virgo...shows frustration...
You would think after 8 years of Bush wed be ready for a change...guess not

Post eclipse (9-11) poll: ""Among Republican voters, Giuliani, the former mayor of New York, trails Mitt Romney in Iowa and New Hampshire, and he lags behind Fred Thompson in South Carolina.
"However, Giuliani is only a few points behind the leader in New Hampshire and South Carolina -- within the poll's margin of error -- suggesting that the race in those two states is too tight for anyone to be declared a clear front-runner" L.A. Times Sept 12 http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/

Majorie I disagree. As we've seen transiting Uranus conjuncting the Repub Nept produce one Repub scandal after another, why should Saturn in opposition to Repub Party's Nept do any less? With Pluto squaring the Repub's Mars in the 12th now thru election 08, I expect more scandal and revelation. According to Karl Rove's exit interview scandals are what gave Demo's a victory in '06. I expect within the coming year both the House and Senate Judiciary Committee will bring charges against a few key Republicans for impeding the right to vote in a few states. Testimony is being gathered now. This is one of the key reasons Karl Rove stepped down.
I see the 08 trine of Pluto to Demo Party's Venus signifying more favorable legal actions and press coverage. However I don't see improvements in their leadership. But then there's Will Rogers old cliche` "I don't belong to an organized party. I'm a Democrat." .

Jotown: "Life event ransits focus on MC/IC, not Asc" you quote. I think this is your personal opinion only as the ascendant (and its progressed position also)I have found unfailingly THE most important angle - it is YOU as opposed to your parents (MC/IC)more clearly than any other point of the chart. As a test in a class I was teaching, I got the students to see if anything happened when Saturn was transiting any of the angles. Top of the hit list was a conjunction to the Asc, the other angles also responded classically (i.e. Saturn on descendant, emphasis on relationships and events in them), and issues round parents/domesticity with Saturn across MC/IC. To me, the ascendant is the essence of how a physical being functions inthe world and any transit (especially hard ones) manifests very concretely.

jotown i haven't received the solar fire file on giuliani yet.. when you get a chance send it to me, thanks. the one example you use to justify where the angles are is hopefully strengthened considerably by other factors, or you are on very shaky ground. i will withhold comment until i get the file from you, but concur with maggy in her response to the quote you left that she directly addresses..

zart, i haven't given giuliani or any of the candidates any strong consideration yet as to which one i think will win in 2008. what i like to do is run the transits, directions and progressions to their chart for the date of the election.. some use jan 20th the day the pres is officially sworn in i suppose, but i go with the nov 4th 2008 election date.

Your point is interesting LWood, but its possible that the country bolts at the Democratic choice....
The current political landscape in the country has the Republican's running for cover, so the Democrat's may figure its a good time to pick a liberal choice and push a liberal agennda on the people...and if there is anything that scares this country its too much liberalism...Nixon won in 68 because of his infamous "silent majority", basically people who had it up to here with hippies, the sexual revolution and Vietnam...its true that the whole Iraq fiasco is Republican initiated..but the Democrats traditionally overestimate the American people's political ideology and go to far such as with Mondale in 84, Dukakis in 88 and Kerry in 2004..
The two democratic front-runners pole wise are Clinton and Obama, while yes they are a woman and a black man, there political ideology may freak the swing states and naturally the south, Obama is very liberal, hes not only pro-abortion rights, but pro partial birth abortion, which makes most people cringe a bit...
The moon is in Capricorn on election day, a naturally conservative and business oriented sign, so is Jupiter which leads me to believe many people will vote their pocket books....Mars in Scorpio is squaring Neptune in Aquarius showing some sort of problem between action and ideology and of course is the opposition between Saturn in Virgo and Uranus in Pisces, almost exact...Saturn is stronger in Virgo than Uranus in Pisces, there is more affinity between the former two, Virgo also represents the middle class and Saturn is conservatism..
The Democrats have to be very careful, in truth the election should be theirs to win after the last 8 years we have had, but if they go to far, which they usually do, people will get scared and go for the safer choice...remember that most presidents over the course of the last century have been republican and even when women got the right to vote in 1919 under a Democrats watch, the next election they still voted overwhelmingly for a Republican and when the 18 year olds got the right to vote for the 1972 election, they did the exact same thing contrary to the belief that both groups are liberal...A clinton-obama ticket may just play into this election

I love astrology and find that it can be very very accurate...but I have to say I have lost a lot of faith in it when trying to predict elections. This forum was ridiculous in 2004 ( I am including myself in this. I was shocked that Bush got reelected). It was so clear that people's ideologies were clouding the way they were predicting who the winner would be. I also have some serious skepticism about predicting the winner of elections based on the birthcharts of political parties. The political parties DO have meaning but that meaning is highly fluid. A long time ago, Republicans were the party of the urban "intellectual" elite..the more "progressive" party, the party that fought for civil rights. The Democrats were more of a small town conservative party who were far less open to progress. Between FDR, Nixon's southern strategy, the civil rights movement (largely supported by the Democratic Party..also opposed by southern dems, who became R's..see how meaningless these party labels are over time?) etc...those meanings have shifted dramatically. I just don't see how you can really see a party's "personality" based on chart placements. The very essence of what the Democratic party is is completely different from a hundred years ago. ...even if people are "voting their pocketbooks", because of the Capricorn influence, that doesn't mean the Republicans would win. In fact, in 2004, if many lower income people DID vote their pocketbooks, rather than issues like gay marriage and abortion, the DEMOCRATS would have won. M, I really don't see how you can argue that Clinton is "too far" to the left and scares people. She may scare people but it isn't because she has some crazy voting record. She is a centrist. Her voting record places her in the middle of her Democratic colleagues. She is very probusiness. She is far closer to the center than Bush was or is. And for the record, young people are one of the strongest democratic groups in America. It would have been a landslide in Kerry's favor if you only counted voters under 35. (IA, NM, NV, FL, OH..all blue)

Sandstone i think I was just reflecting on the proposition put forth my Marjorie Orr relative to Rudy's chart. He seems like a strong candidate here at the starting gate but when reflecting on what Marjorie said about the party... I don't know if he looks like he can do the Repubs any favors...
M if i recall the situation correctly... (I was among the first generation of 18 year olds to vote)... that overwhelming majority voting Republican did so under the effects of the Watergate hoohah (scandal)... only no one knew it at the time. Incedentaly the flip flop Kerry ads from the last election were hauntingly reminiscent of the the anti McGovern flip flop ads preceding the 1972 election. Here we are 28+ years later... more dirty politics... darn these Saturn returns!
I wasn't at Woodstock but I did vote in McGovern.

ben good general comments.. the idea of a center gets lost at election time.. everyone is either a patriotic god loving/fearing conservative, or they are a homo, 3x's married commie who runs away when the going gets tough.. the rhetoric gets intense further along in this particular cycle that will be getting underway shortly.
m, before you go any further define liberal and conservative.. knee jerk labeling (not that you are doing it) may be a good way to tar and feather someone when involved in a heated election, but the last 10 years or more have proven how ineffective these labels are at saying anything, let alone attaching them to one or the other major party. my view on usa politics as a canadian is that saying one is a liberal is tantamount to a death sentence( it has worked well for the repubs, but so has turning ones brain off).. no one ever examines any of it... as an example- has bushs spending habits been liberal or conservative? none of it means anything anymore.. it is all meant to solicit a knee jerk response where people turn off their ability to think and rely on labels to tell them how to think.
most candidates are a combo of both these extremes, but around election time none of them will want you to see it anything like that.

hi everybody!....i'd like to ask you for help...I'd be very thankful if you could tell me sth about my chart because i really don't know which way my life is going. Thank you for any help.
i was born: 12 12 1986 Warsaw Poland at 10.10 PM local time

Sandstone, You made some of my points better than I did I think. :) If one argues that 2008 election day looks "conservative" because of the earthy and capricorn influences (I'm not convinced) then one must define "conservative." These labels are meaningless politically. Is Bush or the current manifestation of the Republicans "conservative" in a Capricorn sense? I don't think so at all. I think most discriptions of earth signs for example don't really fit the vibe of this administration. Fire signs, maybe. Arrogant, optimistic, nationalistic, fanatical, but weirdly hopeful (I am so excited for Pluto to leave sag) The Bill Clinton administration was so much more "conservative" meaning: cautious, slow to make dramatic moves, conserving resources, always moving to the center, rather than feeding the base and PURPOSELY dividing the country (Rove's strategy).

I'm not really too familiar with the American political scene vis a vis how the masses think. What does seem clear is that middle America, red neck country, is pretty reactionary and badly served by a slanted media so their perception of how things are being run in Washington is pretty skewed. And the Republicans are better at the dirty propaganda and heavy spin. I'll look tomorrow at the US charts when I've more time. But a quick look at the 1997 UK Election on the Labour and Conservative Party charts fairly backs up the astrology of the party charts. It was a resounding victory for Labour, the first in many years. Their chart had transitting Jupiter within 3 deg of the Sun, Venus conj and Jupiter sextile Pluto. While the Tories sinking to their worst defeat in ages had Pluto conj Mars, and Saturn conj Neptune and square Uranus. Which kind of fits. If the Democrat chart is right I can't see how it can win with Neptune conj Pluto and square Sun. These are really undermining influences.

I know two people born close to Giuliani's birth date and they are curiously contradictory characters. Part of them is, as Wayne said, rather noble and the other part is seriously not - flaky, questionable moral judgements, naive and a habit of undoing themselves rather spectacularly despite everyone rooting for them. They seem to represent the best and the worst of Gemini. Jupiter in Leo gives a radiance and generosity of spirit; while the Mars Pluto pulls off in the opposite direction to be utterly ruthless. I don't know when selection is but I'd imagine Neptune opposing Jupiter might send him right over the top, too many airs and graces, overly high hopes, at which point a very large banana skin will appear under his feet. And Neptune opp. Moon isn't supportive either physically or emotionally or morale wise, plus he's got Saturn into his 12th so he's pushing against the grain energy and ambition-wise anyway.

Ben wrote: "I was shocked that Bush got reelected...It was so clear that people's ideologies were clouding the way they were predicting who the winner would be."
But don't forget door number three; that the astrology was right but the elections (both 2000 and 2004) were rigged. Bush did not win the election in 2000; he won the court case that overuled the electorate.
There is an ongoing investigation regarding Ohio's handling of the 2004 election. These things aren't always black and white and you have to keep an open mind about the results.
And yes; and astrologers bias can certainly color what they see in a chart.
Namste:)

Well I think you can hardly call anything about Bushlings terms in office victories... he's just there...

Marjorie, Those are impressive stats for Britain's political parties. And you do have a great record. I guess I'm speaking more as a political historian than an astrologer. There just doesn't seem to be ANYTHING really consistent with the two political parties here. They represent different things at different times. And in different places. The Democratic party of Alabama has almost nothing in common with the Democratic party of New York. I guess we could just talk about the National Party. The one that is based in Washington DC but even then I'm just not confident that this is the same entity that was "Born" in 1792. It sure doesn't resemble it at all. I feel like parties are empty vessels that different identities attach themselves to. The weathy, the poor, african americans, GLBT folk, evangelicals, different immigrant groups etc. And the people who are on these "vessels" change. Like I said, African Americans were once represented by the Republicans. Now they are the most loyal Democratic group in the nation. But the labels don't seem to have any meaning apart from who is standing behind the name.

M, I appreciate that Rudy has some problems with "the base" of the Republican party, but then so does Bush. My point is that Republicans are thoroughly disgusted with incompetence, fiscal irresponsibility (the "swagger", remember that?, with Sun square Moon/Jupiter), and idiotic decisions such as poking a big stick in an even bigger hornet's nest in the Middle East.
I do not believe the South is solidly Republican. I think Southerners, like most of us, are solidly disgusted at the state of the nation! Huge trade and fiscal deficits, a debt that has grown from four trillion to an astounding nine trillion dollars, under this fool Bush.
Regardless of Giuliani's marital mishaps and his views on liberal issues such as abortion and gay-rights, he does project an aura of competence, and he has a record to prove that he can actually get things done, and whatever happens next year it will be competence that Americans will demand.
Personally, of all the Republicans I prefer Gingrich because of his creativity and original thinking, but I agree he hasn't a chance.
As for Paul, I like some of his ideas but he is quite Libertarian and doesn't stand a chance with the died in the wool. He also has some pretty brain-dead ideas, such as legalizing drugs. Tancredo seems to be a Johnny one-note, illegal immigration. Important, but not overwhelmingly important.
I don't like McCain at all - he's a blowhard in my opinion forever going on about his wartime heroics - and I think he has ruined his chances with sensible people by stubbornly supporting this ridiculous war in Iraq and by extension the worst President in history. It's pretty gutsy these days to have your picture take with Bush though, I'll give him that. McCain is already dead - he just won't lie down.
Romney is an excellent businessman, but yes the Mormon "cult" taint will dog him.
I don't think much of Thompson at all. He's a mishap and will stumble quickly. He's popular now because Pubs don't much like anyone else.
Of the others only Huckabee has some substance. Duncan is outmatched and Brownback stands for what?
I will add this, I think the people are also fed up with Southerners as President so goodbye Huckabee, although it wouldn't take the press to name him "Huckleberry". No more Arkansas or Texan accents I think, no more "just folks". Just competence, because the country is in disarray and the public know it.

sandstone, I actually like a lot of Paul's ideas, but he has some real steaming piles too - no one is going for the flat-tax, especially the 20 million or so who are employed by the present tax-structure. Wanting to eliminate millions of bureaucrats by closing down awful bureaucratic boondoggles such as the Departments of Education, Commerce, the IRS, etc. who produce nothing but waste is a wonderful idea with zero chance of success. He's just not practical.
He wants us out of Nato and the UN. Fine. Can you see that the guy might actually create an enemy or two? I agree with him on all of this by the way, except about the NATO issue.
Anyway, Paul's a Libertarian not a Republican, which is why he will be one of the first to drop out.

i guess i am into this..
i looked at some progs/transits/directions to when giuliani first became major on jan 1st 1994.. i have used the natal chart offered at 2:30pm, being open to it being an earlier or later birth time.. rudy has an very close mercury/saturn semisquare which is highlighted via the midheaven/ascendant, in the prog and solar arc directions for this date. this aspect suggests someone who is naturally inclined and ambitious of a position of authority - saturn close to the 10th - and has an innate understanding of the importance of financially powerful well positioned people who control things from behind the scenes to be of major help in this regard - mercury in the 8th in taurus semisquare the saturn near midheaven.
the sec prog sun is at 24 cancer 37 which is exactly midpoint of jupiter/midheaven and 45 to the jupiter/ascendant using 29 mutable off the 2:30 time.. although these progression - prog sun at 24 cancer to the jupiter/m and jupiter/a midpoint and the solar arc directions of saturn at 14 leo 27 and mercury at zero cancer 11 with a direct tie in to these same 29 mutable angle positions for 2;30 pm birthtime don't count as a complete view on his life events in any big way, they do suggest the time of 2:30 pm, at least for his position as major of nyc for jan 1 1994 fit very well.

wayne for anyone who wants to see clearly the differences between rudy giulianni and ron paul they need look no further then to the first debate and the highlight of the debate where ron and rudy run into a clear conflict ideologically... the choices for americans are clear, but the media will continue to go out of its way to skew the view and side with the money. http://cornellsun.com/node/23466/21413

Hello,my Astrological Brothers and Sisters.I'm BAAAAKK.
It's the new year,well at least for me anyway.
Now dowm to the Meat,Who will be the next Prez of this Country,the U.S. of A.?
I see Romney or Rudy getting the GOP NOD,Old Fred is dead in the water that is.
DEM NOD can we all say HRC?
Wayne how have you been,Zart and U. Now where is my Girl Penn?

P.S Hello Sandy.What's up in Canada?

Now Rudy's Chart look pretty good.He has three strong Planets in Power Zones.
Neptune,Uranus and Saturn,that's hard to beat. But I say HRC can take him,by a Hair.Real Close.
HRC.50.7% RG 49.3%.

Penn: I see a post from you on 9-9-07. Old Willie felt pain once Monica burnt him with his own Cigar.
So how can you say,.Bill felt no pain.LOL.
I agree that Rudy is a lot of hot air,but he's no dummy.

yikes! hey zayin, the place has been quiet without you.. happy Rosh Hashanah and welcome back!

sandstone I think it's that Paul needs Rudy to make his point. Paul is a Libbo all the way, and I don't disagree with him for crying out loud! When it's not a Full Moon he actually makes sense. I guess it's just the off-days that bother me a little.
Anyway, President Paul? PP?
Here's all I ask you to do ... watch how Rudy's image is gradually softened to appeal more to women (he is an ugly greasy bugger after all) while at the same time he will talk all the tough talk about "strength and freedom" and all that patriot crap while at the same time manage to straddle on the fence about abortion and gay marriage and sanctuary cities, all vulnerable points for the "Base".
Rudy is a monster of a politician. He's my boy anyway. Hi Zayin.

Sandstone Thank you my friend.
Glad to be back,with a Pluto Transit kicking me around.It's square my Sun.
Do not ever believe anyone that says Pluto Transits are not rough.They are ROUGH. I am waiting for 30 NOV to get here so that evil and nasty Pluto will be gone out of my life.
Wayne what's up? Who's gonna win? Rudy Tudy or Hill?

wayne, i don't get to vote, so it doesn't matter.. even if i did, i have lost faith in the present political process. having to choose between giuliani and hilary is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. both you and zayin might be correct in thinking they will be the front runners. woe the american public and the planet by extension.. you don't honestly believe either of these 2 will be of some benefit do you? i definitely can't see it.. neither of them has enough clarity to see what has gotten america to where it is now, let alone figure out a way to break with the recent past. both of them are power hungry (pluto mars) leo types with all other characteristics fading into the background. both of them have saturn transit dropping down or at the bottom of their chart.. ? and they want to be lead the usa in the world at this time? talk about doing things out of season. they have had their day in the sun and could be doing something else, but like a person who keeps on trying to be young even when they know they aren't - they persist. there is something inherently phony about almost all politicians and most folks know this. it goes with the present political process very well, so i suppose we could all be happy to have rupert murdoch decide who he and his contemporaries want to help crown, while the world continues to go to hell in a hand basket.. their is a reason i don't like to bother with politics.. when one examines hypocrisy too closely it gets under ones skin.. their are better things to pay attention to... i think i will try to do that now, lol.

Ron Paul is sorta like a lobbyist. He has a constituency to represent, nothing more. He also has that crazy uncle thing going. Idealistic to the point of ridiculous. All those crazy uncles who have run in years past seem to forget-when espousing their ideology-they have the two "peoples chambers" with which to contend for the major improvements they're pushing. But when did practicalities ever bother an idealist? But doesn't he make a wonderful devil's advocate.
Wikipedia gives Aug 20, 1935. Seems he's a Clinton redux with Sun in Leo, Moon in Taurus. Merc conj Nept for idealism with Saturn in Pisces exact opposition to Merc. Mars conj Jupt for drive, assertion.
Hello zayin.

Zayin, great to see you back. Off politics for a minute, you mentioned Pluto "kicking you around." Didn't you used to not believe in him (unless I'm mixing you up with someone else)? Just curious.

lwood, ron paul is the only candidate who voted against the war. clearly that makes him an idealist... meanwhile everyone ready for the next war coming very shortly against iran? lots of excuses will be manufactured by the 'realists'. these words idealist and realist could give liberal and conservative a run for their money.

Carol,I said that I did belive Pluto was a Planet.You are correct about me making that statement.
I still believe that Pluto is not a Planet,but is Satan.Lucifer,and about six other demons all in the shape of a Ball.LOL

L.Wood.What's up.

Crol,I meant did NOT Believe.

Thanks for clearing that up, Zayin. BTW, you Pisces's sometimes have the best (imaginative) way of putting things, lol.

New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, recipient of the first Lifetime Muzzle Award:Apr 13, 1998. Second: Apr 13, 1999. third: Apr 13, 2000. Louima case: Aug 9, 1997 Diallo shot and killed on February 4, 1999 Giuliani employs his childhood friend Monsignor Alan Placa as a consultant at Giuliani Partners despite a feb 3, 2003 Suffolk County, N.Y., grand jury report that accuses Placa of sexually abusing children

sandstone, surely Churchill summed up democracy well when he said, "Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the rest".
Certainly we are dealing with politicians here, people who lie for a living. In fact our entire organized society is based on deception - the banking system for example whereby the banks convince you that they are not doing exactly what they are doing, lending your money out to someone else. It's all very Neptunian you know.
Thats what you get when you demand schools and running water.
Zayin, I think it will be Rudy and Hillary and then Rudy just might win. I can't figure out which though because both have Presidential charts. Both are noble-spirited and broad and deep thinkers, highly intelligent and competent. They are both strongly Martian with Mars/Pluto in Leo. I like Mars in Leo because it's the most powerful Sign position for Mars in action - courageous, fearless and generous without taking advantage of others with its strength. Mars/Pluto simply cannot be intimidated regardless of how overwhelming the odds against him. We will need someone like this to stand against the serious forces that the moronic G F Bush has actually encouraged with his insane "war" in Iraq. It's not a war; on Congress can declare war and it did not.
Just an aside, but most people don't know that the $120 billion it costs us to bu in Iraq is "off budget" - emergency supplemental it's called - so the current account deficit under Bush is $120 billion more than is officilly reported. Another trick.

I think Mr. G. is quite competent but the the flaws are intensely intriguing. Something may ruin it for him. Illness or treachery is my guess. I mean ultimately, though. I cannot tell if he will be elected or not.
Neptune close to Virgo ascendant is very slick and wiley; not my cup of tea.

New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, recipient of the first Siderum wrote >>>
Lifetime Muzzle Award:Apr 13, 1998. Second: Apr 13, 1999. third: Apr 13, 2000. Louima case: Aug 9, 1997 Diallo shot and killed on February 4, 1999 Giuliani employs his childhood friend Monsignor Alan Placa as a consultant at Giuliani Partners despite a feb 3, 2003 Suffolk County, N.Y., grand jury report that accuses Placa of sexually abusing children <<<
I'm not sure what your point is. Or are you verifying some obscure astrological theory (obscure to me anyway)?

I don't understand that he is "obscure astrological theory", to that you talk about. I have sent single information to be considered for rectified the Rudy Chart.

Perhaps someone could use siderum's contribution to pull up a rectification chart.

zart i thought siderun might be joking but alas the muzzle awards are real and giuliani did recieve one in 98.. since it appears the offer from jotown is going to go by the wayside, i may look at this dates when i get back after the weekend. >> New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani
..for ordering New York City's Transit Authority to remove from city buses an advertisement that satirized him. The ad, promoting New York Magazine, contained the caption, "Possibly the only good thing Rudy hasn't taken credit for."
UPDATE: Federal courts ruled the removal to be unconstitutional.<<

wayne, i got a laugh when i read giuliani was reading churchill around the time of 9-11, probably after... what is it with these freaks who want to be someone they are not? do they think that by fantasizing it regularly and often enough, others will start to believe it too? speculation on my part, but i am coming to think of politicians as another form of glorified rock stars that ought to be in seniors homes rather then out on the road singing songs from another generation... same with politicians who can't seem to gravitate to anyone else in political history other then napoleon or churchill.. oh, i almost forgot - those pesky leo planets keep on showing up in these regal wannabes.

Churchill had a very emphasised Leo Moon (conj Uranus in Leo) square Pluto opp Mercury, so he was not above a bit of flamboyant trumpet-blowing himself. Being a Sagittarian he told a good tale, and his inspired rhetoric was what the UK needed at that point. Mars in Leo - noble? Not sure about that. Doesn't stand up to intimidation? - maybe. But it can do a fair amount of intimidating, especially close to Pluto. It can be hugely egotistical, over bearing, a great dominator of other people especially those who disagree with their trenchant beliefs. Pride can be their downfall, despite their belief in their own infallibility. The upside is great leadership ability but t'other side is hugely fallible. Hubris and all that.

I don't see the election day 08 chart favoring the republicans, I see it favoring fear, disruption, and underhanded, underground nastiness in general. Capricorn is no more inherently 'conservative' than Aquarius is 'liberal' when it comes to politics. There are interesting and volitile aspects that morning. Set for 7am DC, the Sun and Moon are in applying quintile, with the Sarurn Uranus opposition dead square the midpoint. This is nothing short of an invisible T-square. Orcus quintiles the sun... The Mars Neptune square is angular. There will be much more than mere showmanship here. This is tense and dirty, with lots of tooth, cloak, and claw. A situation not beyond a 'constitutional crisis'. Should be fun.

Marjorie I was under the same impression because of his Jupiter/Moon in the 11th. He makes himself well connected and maybe likes to use Godfather like persuasion techniques to achieve objective. Sidereally speaking his Cancer/Mars is influenced by the Moon's desire for a larger than life reputation his Mars is also influenced (term/decan) by a very strong Venus. His strength showmanship isn't very practical and is mostly vanity.
I feel that republicans respond to Rudy out of a nostalgia for what they thought or hoped Bush-ling offered. The difference is the Moon/Jupiter relationship Bush-ling had with Bush Sr. and with its placement in the 3rd house that made Bush-ling more of an inner circle sort of fellow.
If he is elected I think there is the hope that his socially more liberal nature will appease non Republicans enough to join in the folly.

I was just a boy when Rudy Guliani became Mayor in NYC first in the early 1990's in NYC and i remember the city in those days was a total disaster...Homeless epidemic, AIDS, high crime, subway graffiti, drugs, racial violence the whole nine yards...David Dinkins who was mayor then was an absolute disaster, which is perhaps one of the reasons NYC hasnt voted Democrat since...But most New Yorkers will tell you that before 9/11 Guliani was a disaster of a mayor, he was involved in scandal after scandal, he did clean up NYC a bit, but basically he attacked civil liberty after civil liberty, the police state he initiated was just better than the chaos Dinkins left....
As a presidential candidate I really cant understand what Guliani brings to the table....his only federal experience is as an attorney for the country under Reagan, but he never served in higher office...but a "war hero" for actually doing his job as opposed to running for cover during 9/11? That was just the leo stellium at work...the media was watching and he went for it...
The republican party with its Scorpio Moon hates liberal values (at least openly) and a thrice divorced open philanderer with kids who don't like him, a weak fiscal record is not the stuff dreams are made of and no federal experience...i know alot of people here think hell get the nomination...but im not convinced...
And there is also another elephant in the room....he does not look presidential...hes short, balding and lispy, hes not attractive or dignified looking even..you dont have to be an adonis to be elected, but dignified does help in the days of television...
A capricorn jupiter-moon conjunction on election day does not mean a necessary vote for a Republican, it does however mean people will vote their pocket books and refrain from voting for someone who has "extreme views" if Obama makes it that far, hes gonna get clothes-pinned by that
I know something of British History and Winston Churchill was a man of his times, prior to WWII he was in basic political exile...the war made him as Neville Chamberlin was too weak and compromising...if i remember his chart correctly, Winston had 29 Virgo rising with Mars in Libra in the first house, i think also at his sun-moon midpoint..so he was a fighter..a product of the time, but he was lucky to live in that time...Guliani's time has perhaps passed

I think a lot of people forget while looking at the chart of the party... is that the Republican party was highjacked by ultra conservatives with moral agenda.

Sorry that i didnt respond to everyone, i had to read down a bit, i tend to write sometimes before i finish reading....
Young people tend to be liberal, this is correct Ben, but my point was that both women and people who are between 18-25 when given the right to vote in the elections following that time voted for the "conservative" candidate...
Whats a "conservative" candidate? Well nowadays it means less government spending, except for Defense generally, lower taxes, more state's rights as opposed to federal laws etc...this can mean social conservative as well, the two usually go hand-in hand but as we see in the case of Guliani its not always the case, hes more a libertarian which is a fiscal conservative but social liberal...generally the republican party has been conservative socially and fiscally and the democrat party liberal social and fiscally...this has generally been the standard since the great depression with slight modifications made by Reaganites
The Clintons are moderates in that you are correct...there more political savy than extremists, to quote Charles Talleyrand who was the foreign minister during the time of the Bourbons and Napoleon on how he survived various political movements..."above all else, no zeal", how typical of a Virgo rising...this echos the clintons...they are passionate about nothing but winning...populists to the core...so is it possible for Hillary to win in 2008, of course, if she comes across as favorable economically...
Capricorn is not a conservative sign, its an opportunist, but its also resistant to change in that it fears being knocked off its perch, naturally a regime change can upset Capricorn as it may loose its power...so its not a sign of liberals of conservatives, it merely lives to serve itself..so on election day anything that is against status quo or threatens possible security is out

Well I fail to see that "Diallo shot and killed on February 4, 1999" has anything whatsoever to do with Giuliani. He didn't shoot him. It was just one more crisis in the daily life of a mayor of a large city.

Marjorie wrote >>> Mars in Leo - noble? Not sure about that. Doesn't stand up to intimidation? - maybe. But it can do a fair amount of intimidating, especially close to Pluto. It can be hugely egotistical, over bearing, a great dominator of other people especially those who disagree with their trenchant beliefs. Pride can be their downfall, despite their belief in their own infallibility. The upside is great leadership ability but t'other side is hugely fallible. Hubris and all that. <<<
That's a fair analysis, although I believe I said that it does in fact stand up to intimidation. I think Mars in Leo with Pluto is a bit over the top so to speak, inclined to escalate matters if others try to intimidate it, especially of course if afflicted - there is a certain "tipping-point" where the person "loses it" if others tries to push them around. Then watch out! Mars in Leo is only a bully if afflicted (afflicted Mars in any Fixed sign seems to encouraging a bullying nature) but if well-aspected it will never be bullied and fights on behalf of the weak. In this sense surely it is noble?
I think the Mars Pluto Conjunction is less violent in action than it is in theory. The fact that the person feels personally invulnerable actually calms them... No doubt the aspect brings danger but not necessarily violence into the life.

Are several the crises between 1997 and 2001, that passage with Liderman? What day born Robert Liderman? somebody knows?

>>> And there is also another elephant in the room....he does not look presidential...hes short, balding and lispy, hes not attractive or dignified looking even..you dont have to be an adonis to be elected, but dignified does help in the days of television... <<<
M, that's amusing. Lispy? LOL
In normal times I think the cosmetics of the Presidency matters, but not in present times. After all, Bush is a pretty good-looking guy, tall, fit etc ... but two-thirds of the voters now think he's an idiot.
Americans surely are a little beyond this at the present time. The opinion-polls reflect just how angry and frustrated the public are at the present state of America. They would vote for Bugs Bunny, who's also short, hairless and lispy, if he could solve the problems caused by G W Bush.

Ah youd think so wayne...
I remember in 2004 before the election, people where im from, were like, "we cant wait to get this idiot out of office" and you'd think as he approached his second saturn return this guy was toast and yet nope, he won and legitimately, despite what anyone says...reason, kerry was a weak candidate and reminded people as bill maher and other say as "the tree that throws apples at dorothy in the wizard of oz"...its true, Bush has a "simian" look to him, but in politics, its sad to say, we are still pretty superficial...few case in points...
Dukakis wasnt particularly unattractive but when he debated Bush senior and they shook hands people noticed that Bush senior was much much taller tha Dukakis, it hurt him because tall candidates have an advantage as well...
Jimmy Carter with his smile and southern charm was no match for Reagan who flashed Hollywood with his perfect tousled hair and perfect teeth....he was right out of a movie
The most infamous is of course Nixon and Kennedy...tan and youthful kennedy against disheveled and haggard looking Nixon, it tipped the scales...
Looks matter in politics, its sad but true, they just do, most people are superficial, i know women who voted for Clinton cause they thought he was "hot"...Mayor Lindsay from New York in the 1970's actually attempted to run for president because he "looked" the part even though he wasn't even popular in NY
John Edwards wouldn't get two votes with his constant populist rhetoric and lack of experience (he barely squeaked out a term in the senate, didnt run for re-election and would have probably lost had he) but because hes handsome, people take him seriously

M, perhaps the ugliest President, and one of the most effective, was Lincoln. He was once heckled while making a speech, when a man yelled out, "You're two-faced". Lincoln replied, "If I had two faces do you think I'd be using this one?"
Undoubtedly looks matter in politics, hell, in everything really. I mean, if a guy advertises himself as short, ugly, bald and fat good luck on getting a date, unless you cold add the term billionaire at the end.
So I mostly agree with you, but we are in very troubled times in America. Even the drug-addicted dopey American public (30 percent of who can't find America on a map) sense that we're in real trouble.
No one will care how attractive or pretty the next President is. They will vote for competence and effectiveness.

I am not a superficial person, well i try not to be, but Wayne i recommend seeing the American President, theres an excellent quote from the chief of staff played by Martin Sheen where he says, "50 years ago if there was a television set in every house, this country does not elect a president in a wheel-chair"...
Now, this is naturally unfair as what should one have to do with the other, but sadly, it does...this is the age of television, the movie star, where the "news" spends more time on britney spears than it does on iraq, where more children would rather grow up to be michael jordan than the president...where john edwards spends 400 bucks on a haircut...
I fear you overestimate the american public...more shallow than ever...i watched john edwards in 2004 debate cheney, im no fan of cheney but edwards came across as a dolt...same with quayle in 1988 and 1992, picked because of "youthful looks"...mind you you dont need to be handsome to be president, but dignified certainly helps...guliani doesnt radiate that, hes pure new york, gritty and clever...but broad appeal? i dunno about that
Its really the Democrats to loose since the last 8 years have been a domestic mess, with the moon-jupiter in capricorn on election day all they have to do is not rock the boat, some nice safe moderate with sound fiscal policies from a nice western or southern state..sometimes i wonder what geniuses are advising that party since everytime an opportunity comes up they blow it...
But thats where the Republican scorpio moon comes into play...scorpio moons are excellent at putting people on the defensive and exploiting weaknesses...which is what they did to kerry last time, he was the challenger and spent the election defending himself! thats why Guliani is going to have such a hard time, with the party scorpio moon and the other major contenders sharing it all in square to his leo, hes going to have to spend the entire time defending his "family values"
The moon says it all...

M, you might be right in that I overestimate the intelligence of the American public, but there are serious forces I think that will give people a jolt and make them really pay attention.
Because of irresponsible spending (Bush has added nearly FIVE TRILLION DOLLARS to the debt) and lack of oversight by Congress we are headed into a major calamity in the currency and in the domestic housing market - it's not over; it's just started.
According to Moody's 1.7 million people will lose their homes next year as a result of lax lending practices. People start paying attention when they or their family are evicted from a house they thought they owned .. Sixty mortgage companies are already in bankruptcy and huge financial brokers like Bear Stearns have been beaten to a pulp in the past few months because of their exposure to the sub-prime secondary market. The dollar has plummeted (which I know of first hand because I travel to Europe quite a bit). Have you noticed food prices lately? This is stuff that hits people in the face like a 2 by 4. So even the usually clueless American public will be paying attention.
Of course this is going to be an absolutely unbelievable brutal election, and Rudy has the resilience to still be standing at the end (Mars/Pluto in Leo again). Him and Hillary I think (also Mars Pluto)

I note that more than one of the respondents have stated that Capricorn is not a conservative sign. I have been of the opinion that the earth and water signs tend to be conservative while the air and fire signs tend to be liberal. The compassion of water signs might confuse the issue, but not too much. I am not dogmatic about it, but I was surprised that anyone would not consider Capricorn to be conservative.
Of course I am not referring to Sun Sign astrology. For the political slant to be considerable, there must be more emphasis than merely a Sun in one of the conservative signs.

But two NYers? Even though Hillary is a carpet bagger from Chicago and Arkansas, I dont see both parties pitting two current natives against each other and NY is not representative of the country, thats why since Kennedy no North easterner has held the highest office...the country "identifies" with someone from a more common state, not Mr. Kerry from Mass who came across as a snob, nor Mr. Gore who may have been from Tenn but was raised in D.C and seen as a "beltway boy"...generally its the south or midwest who picks the president...its as much as fiction as anything else as most are ivy educated and from wealthy backgrounds...such as Mr. Bush who went to Yale but fancies himself a cowboy or the original cowboy, Teddy Roosevelt who was from oyster bay long island and went to Harvard...Kerry was just simply over the top with his patrician looks and snobish air...as was Gore, they couldnt see themselves... and i dont think Guliani can either...hes from modest means its true, but he is too ethnic just like Al Smith in 1928...
Politics is really a science of advertising and marketing...a candidate wins based on his projection...most people arent sophisticated enough to understand the economy or international ramifications...the old adage is "individual people may be smart, but people in general are idiots"...with saturn in Cancer and Leo the last few years the agenda was security and patriotism, with it in Virgo its going to be about the economy and the moon-jupiter in capricorn on election, where they both fall is really telling us everything we already know....dont push anything drastic, dont rock any boats...keep people secure and materialistically comfortable and you got the win...if the Democrats just pick a nice safe candidate in the bulk of Bill Cinton as opposed to McGovern, Mondale and Dukakis they can take the bag...this election is not the time for drastic change...as the clintons said so well in the 1992 election, " its the economy stupid"

M once again I agree with some of your observations, but not all.
I would say first that just because Northerners never get elected - Kennedy in the last 50 years - is precisely the reason the public is ready for a Northerner.
Hillary a carpetbagger? Surely not. She's a New Yorker!
Look I understand the twin themes of your posts - Image and the Electorate. Where I disagree is that I believe the public are ready, in fact begging for a change. I think this was clearly seen in the mid-terms which bought in the Dems. Although I have no faith in the pitiable Reid and the hopeless Pelosi, both such pathetic leaders that there's a good chance that these two idiots will hand Congress back to the Pubs and more wild spending. They've accomplished simply nothing despite all the hoopla and grandstanding.
So in this sense I agree that the Dems are always likely to blow it. Their candidates always seem to be "fish out of water" - I mean my God Kerry? The hapless, frustrated Gore? Mondale, who could put you to sleep just opening his mouth? The little Greek bloke who's head was too big for his body? Bill Clinton's win was a surprise even to him. That was meant to be a test run in 1992, the way Obama's is now.
Anyway, my point is that while Americans are still likely to be as dumb in 2008 as they were in 1908 they are beginning to realize that their leaders are corrupt and stupid. Watch what happens with the up-coming housing debacle, which cannot be averted by the FRB. Oil is now at $80.00 a barrel. The slightest disturbance in the oil market will take that quickly to $100.00, which translates to over $4.00 per gallon of gas. Believe me, that will wake up Americans.
We live in interesting times, sir (I assume it's sir).

Stands Pat with a Full House, Conservatives tend to have a strong Saturn influence in the chart, especially strong aspects from Saturn to the mental rulers. Liberals tend to have lots of Neptune aspects, or at least a prominent Neptune (which some might consider an affliction in itself). This applies only if the native is intelligent - otherwise we see a miasma of illogic based on "feelings", the sickening crap that popular TV focuses on.
Of course, intelligent people do not watch television, or at least the "popular" stuff (C-Span, Arts, CNBC, PBS and the History Channel are permissible).
I don't think political leaning has anything to do with Sign placement at all - that's just newspaper astrology.

We do live in interesting times and haha yes its sir...
But I don't think it was a test run for Clinton in '92...what happened was they (the dems) took a look at the past and said were getting hammered here, '88 a liberal from Mass, '84 a liberal from Minnesota, '80 a Liberal from Georgia, '72 a liberal from South Dakota, '68 another liberal from Minnesota...whats the pattern here? Well we won in '76 with a southerner but that same southerner lost re-election in '80 to a conservative....hmm...he was too liberal! what we need is a moderate southerner..Bam! Clinton...You dont need a double digit IQ to figure it out, but apparently the Dems dont have a double digit IQ because they ran Kerry in 2004...thats the political lesson a southern or western moderate is best...
The astrological lesson is no, no, no strong Sagittarius in a candidate chart, time and time again such an influence kills a hopeful because it contrasts with the USA chart, Scratch Kerry, Scratch Dukakis, Scratch Mondale all with plenty of Sagittarian planets and all with Gemini moons in opposition...lesson number two, stay away from Capricorn moons, there have been quite a few capricorn moon presidents in history but none, none have been elected in the last 100 years! Scratch Gore....In terms of McGovern and Humphrey both were Gemini risings as was Dukakis, so it seems that Gemini risings dont fit well with the USA chart either...perhaps its the USA's mars being there thats so hostile...
So whats left? Clinton with his leo sun and taurus moon....Carter with his libra sun and scorpio moon...both southerners, both fixed moons, both were elected...both were moderates...taurus and scorpio moons for president's seem to be fine, so do Aquarius and Leo as well Cancer and Libra...the mutable signs esp rising and to some extent with the sun and moon dont go along well with the USA electorate, perhaps too much "flip flopping"
Maybe if the Democrats had read the postings on this site they would have won a few instead of making the same mistakes over and over...the DNC needs to hire new campaign experts and perhaps an astrologer

jotown - i am still waiting for the giuliani file.
jotown quote >>I have offered the Solar fire file that has these life events to anyone who wants to take the time to study them. << sept 11th.
>>If anyone would like the Solar Fire file (version 6 with life events) I would be more than happy to share it with you.
Namaste:)<< sept 9th

M,I hope you mean Triple digit IQ.Everyone has a least a double digit I.Q.
Now Wayne and I combined are batting 300
Otherwise good post.

Thanks Zayin.
Ive met some people who i wasnt quite sure about, but yes this is true, everyone does at least have double digits

Ah Alaska,
One would wonder why the Alaskans keep Ted Stevens in office...you would think such a state would be pro-environment and therefore Democrat but its not so, because one issue trumps every other and by saying this i will add to the stigma of all Capricorn risings, Money! Since Alaska became a state in 1959, the klondike state has benefited by millions from that liquid gold, oil...In fact, if memory serves me correctly they virtually always vote for the Republican and Mr. Stevens is an old hand at getting his constituents money..the pocketbook governs all things, religion, environment, values etc...now i really sound like a Capricorn rising, but its true
Look at political history...its really a Republican presidential country...in the last 100 years Democrats only get into office following a crisis of sorts...Wilson in 1912 when Teddy Roosevelt split the Republicans and therefore lost the presidency for Taft and himself...Wilson eked out his second term in 1916 because of WWI....no democrats till Roosevelt in 1932 and thats because of the Depression coupled with WWII...Truman followed because of the same war and because of the death of his predecessor....LBJ also because of the death of his predecessor...Carter because of Watergate and Clinton because of the recession of 1992..
The one and only exception to all of these rules in Kennedy in 1960 and hes quite a few exceptions...youngest elected, only roman catholic, last northerner in last 50 years, last senator elected without having served higher office first..quite an abnormality...i missed the 60's but there must have been something going on in the heavens...
So the question is this, are we at least in the mid of the electorate at a crisis enough to change the guard? My heart says yes, but the moon-jupiter in capricorn might just say no

M, good post as usual.
Actually the Kennedy Presidency was an anomaly in many ways. He shouldn't have been President because it was bought for him by his dad, and if the corrupt unions had not participated he would not have been.
It's an interesting philosophical experiment to consider whether something that is extant, such as a stolen election is in the chart of the "winner" or whether that winner is simply a winner? For example did G W Bush "steal" an election? I don't know. But what is in the chart? His theft or his Presidency?
Perhaps it is a similar conceptual issue that the "future" unfolds according to a existent "plan", or else it simply develops from existing biological substrate. Does the future already exist or do we create it? Nobody seems to know. Einstein said that God does not play dice with the Universe but he refused to say whether He played chess ...
To answer your question. Yes. We are at a tipping-point where the public are finally starting to pay attention. Although most Americans are not bright even dumb people eventually ask the questions asked by the peasants in rural France of the 1780's - "Why is bread so expensive? How come so few people live so well and so many live poorly? Why do I have to struggle in a land of plenty" etc.
We are indeed in for more interesting times.

m the other point worth remembering is how talented the dems are at dropping the ball... look at how they make idiots of themselves over a response to the war in iraq... the public hates the war but the dems continue to try to take some muddied middle way.. not one of them has enough guts, character, or integrity to represent the general pulbic who are disgusted with it... an absence of leadership is an understatement when it comes to describing the dems... at least one gets some leadership from the repubs, however boneheaded and misguided it is, which it usually always is.
wayne, why pick on alaska? one could say the same with the usa for the last 2 elections as well. i agree with m - it is about money... money, not god is the lord of western society at present and we are all falling down as a consequence, so long as we continue to serve the almighty $ above all else.

do americans really want another fascist type leader? pick someone without a mars/pluto conj, or a concentration in leo please. bush ought to be enough of a reminder of where that leads.

regarding the Kennedy election:
Mars and Jupiter happen to be in the same area of the heavens as they were in the fall of 1960.
There was a huge supreme court decision in Dec. 1960 "Boynton v. Virginia" would usher in the end of segregation on public transportation and begin the organized "sit ins" that would become the hallmark of the civil rights movement and the 60's.
The climate is ripe for a surprising election. While it is true that "Generation Me" or "y" or "next" whatever you want to call them, are an unlikely group for civil change, they may surprise us. I expect the candidates that have personal planets triggered by the Jupiter Mars oppostions (there will be 3 because Mars retrogrades) will be the most interesting. RG's MC and Saturn are under the Mars transit and taking the opposition by Jup. and Pluto.
Gingrich has Sun opp. Moon under the Mars opp Jupiter / Pluto respectively.
Of course, this time, Pluto joins the mix. The last time Jup. Pluto and Mars were all in this vacinity of the heavens they were conjunct, not forming oppositions. It was 1758.

Some interesting comments from anon and sandstone.
I guess they can't call the next one the "z" generation.
sandstone I don't pick on Alaska especially. I think Americans generally are stupid. Canadians are far more intelligent. On a recent trip to Vancouver listening to CBC radio there was a discussion on the gerund and whether it still applies in modern language ... could you imagine such a discussion on ANY American radio station where they are not shouting at one another? No.

>>For example did G W Bush "steal" an election? I don't know. But what is in the chart? His theft or his Presidency?<< Wayne
Let me take a plunge. I enjoy using Ebertin's midpoints which often answer issues not readily apparent
In GWB's chart Mars is in accidental detriment and a weak sign. Mars rules his Mc hence whatever purpose he finds in life and how he may go about fulfilling it.
Mars is on some significant midpoints. One of the most telling is Nept/PLuto which deal with larger socio-political issues.
Ebertin gives Mars=Nept/PL as "...misfortune of being used as a tool for other people's interests..." Now that his reputation has been forever tarnished by following the dictates of so-called neocons, especially Dick Cheney it's obvious to me the aspect worked out. The group who managed him into the presidency found a fellow with reasonable charm and low curiosity who was pliable.
Both JFK and GWB were strongly tied to their families' destinies. Both featured Saturn in late degrees of Cancer. JfK had Saturn cnj his Mc, Bush has it sqr.
As you say on the whole Americans are not very bright, not since TV and air-conditioning made lazy fools of so many in this brief post WWII period when our productivity outstripped others because our infrastructure was not destroyed in WWII, it was actually built to overcapacity. I think Bush represents that dullness of the mind quite well, and the self-imposed ignorance so many Americans choose.

There's a lot of water going to flow under the bridge between now and selection never mind the Presidential election itself. Looking at the Eclipse chart for 11 Sept 2007 there's a mutable grand square - Uranus (16 Pisces) opp New Moon (18 Virgo) square Pluto (26 Sag)opp Mars (21 Gemini). The Eclipse Mars which fell exactly on the US 9th house Mars is approaching the Pluto exact opposition this week so heavy pressures, challenging, frustrating. Then Uranus moves to the exact opp to the New Moon in March onwards, which will be jolting, startling etc etc and more pertinent to the US, Uranus will square both the US Mars and the Eclipse chart Mars from late April. This last will be really high tension, insecure, prone to over reactions. With Uranus opp US Neptune following hard on its heels there will be panic, confusion. Even before then from mid November Saturn will square Giuliani's Sun Uranus and square the US Uranus through till January which will be pretty jolting. Rudy's going to have a really tough November running into that with Pluto opp Saturn. I get continually irritated not being sure which US chart time makes sense - which of them shows up the financial meltdown - sub primes etc and Chinese threatening to pull out their cash - best do you think? The recent Solar Eclipse is even more crucial if anything to UK since it was 10th house in London and the recent bank semi-collapse and panic in the financial sphere, plus foot and mouth rearing its ugly head again do seem to point to a seriously bumpy ride ahead for GBrown who has also got Uranus square Mars coming up next year personally so methinks his rather unexpected honeymoon run in to being PM is over.

If you are not in the "majority" the United States is probably one of the better countries in the world...think about it...Europe did not become liberal until the post war years...and before that it was pretty homogonous...people forget that the Nazis not only persecuted Jews, but also slavs, homosexuals, witnesses and gypsies....the british treated the irish and to some extent the scots like second class citizens...the french massascred the Huegenots, the spanish any non-catholics...even in italy until the early 1900's non-catholics could not worship in churces...so while i agree that the US is conservative at this point in history to Europe, such was not the case until recently...
At the Evian conferece of 1935 where the world powers got together to decide what to do with the "non-aryans" being thrown out of Europe by Hitler's forces liberal countries such as Canada and Australia not only said no, but joined in very anti-semitic rants...so history has proven checkered pasts for many countries....the treatment of the british in India...colonialism in Africa
With conservative values hampering the USA since the Reagan revolution of the early 1980's, the USA makes a convenient pin cushion but we are still one of the first heterogenous society's and regardless of our current problems, one of the most successful

m, i take a different view on the usa at present.. it seems to want to revert to some form of monarchy ruled by the rich. it has a checkered past with regard to black people and while it loves to venerate the self made person, their are very few of them around anymore. it has become a class type system where money is the defining feature and that is conservative in the worst sense of the word too.
marjorie, i couldn't figure out which chart you were using for the usa.. sag rising?
wayne, further to lwoods comments i thought you it summed up very well in regards to your question of where is it in the chart regarding the election being stolen with your comment - pluto rising can go a few different ways.. i think the pluto says it all as far as the election steal is concerned.

for the record the iq info is controversial and comes from the book the wealth of nations - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$, lol.. >>IQ and the Wealth of Nations is a controversial 2002 book by Dr. Richard Lynn, Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Ulster, Northern Ireland, and Dr. Tatu Vanhanen, Professor Emeritus of Political Science at the University of Tampere, Tampere, Finland.[1] The book argues that differences in national income (in the form of per capita gross domestic product) correlate with differences in average national IQ. The authors interpret this correlation as showing that IQ is one important factor contributing to differences in national wealth and rates of economic growth, but that it is not the only determinant of these differences. The data, methodology, and conclusions have been criticized.

I read the Bell Curve a few years ago which makes slight references to cultural iq differences and i will tell you i think its complete rubbish ....its not a fair statistic in regards to other nations because most other nations are fairly homogenous whereas the united states is a hodge podge of many cultures so there "cumulative iq" is impossible....
In regards to this coutries treatment of minorities there are only two groups to me that stand out...the first is the native american perhaps one of G-d's most abused people...the white man effectively kicked him off his land and then spent centuries effecting him with diseases and poverty...
Second is the african-american which differs from the other minorities in that every other from irish, italians, jews, orientals came here of their own free will, whereas African americans were snatched here unwillingly and forced to acclimate to slavery and later segregation, only these two groups have real recourse against the government, the rest of "us" came here voluntarily so its a different situation...
The united states cant support a monarchy unless it imports one...if you look at all of the monarchies in Europe you will note that they are all interrelated, the one exception being the house of orange in Holland and all are of German descent...in this country we are too culturally divided for a joint monarchy...what we do have and revere is celebrity and that is based on wealth...its no accident that the United States has a strong Jupiter in Cancer and Saturn in Libra..Jupiter seeks to amass and is well placed in Cancer, the packrat of the signs and Saturn which seeks fame and social standing is well placed in libra...the two go together well and combine to form the plutocracy which thrives on celebrity...ass the Moon in Aquarius favoring the bizarre and what you have in this Age of Aquarius is the pinnacle of american desire...movie made everything from politics to movies..
I think this generation, X or as i call it "the proletariat of the idiot" is actually the most clear representation of the USA natal chart

Oh I dunno Sandstone it just says over all Yanks and Canucks are average... maybe a little above in the world sense... from my travels I've found that true.
Speaking of intelligence quotients... That wiley tropical Scorpio Sun favorite Condi Rice who says she has "never run for anything" is finally running to put enough distance between her and the Bush-ling's foreign policy. It only took her six years to learn what some of the uneducated ignorant masses had been suggesting for years. Who knows maybe Stanford will take her back.
What I am finding intriguing about US politics run by those born when Pluto was traveling through tropical Leo. Educational emphasis was about what makes us tick, how can we feel better about ourselves. (Even Astrology has taken on this purpose in many instances)
The business models that evolved from all that self examination about the time Pluto made its way to Libra was the In Search of Excellence model where people were encouraged to schmooze their way into their bosses heart and their bosses were supposed to reward them with money and invitations to the inner circle. Our president with and MBA .... Bush-ling exemplifies the school of thought that grew out of this... think: "You're doing a heck of a job Brownie" in NOLA after a devastating hurricane brought no effective federal response... from the federation his boss (Bush-ling) is in charge of. If he had been from say the Pluto/Cancer generation and the cultural model in place then... Brownie would have gotten severely dressed down and fired... I mean hello... a mediocre horse breeder/judge hired for that post in the first place?
Empires come empires go.
For those of you that think Alaskans as not being too bright based on the performance of Ted Stevens... well Ted was a frontier senator that sadly... has lived out his usefulness... what once was considered savvy politics a decade or two ago is now considered greed... or what ever. There are few places on the globe where politics are wonderful for everyone. Alaskans are smart enough to live where it is dazzlingly beautiful 24/7/365.25 despite the politics.
M said you would think such a state would be pro-environment and therefore Democrat but its not so, because one issue trumps every other and by saying this i will add to the stigma of all Capricorn risings, Money!
Alaska has been a good proving ground for eco-friendly pipeline technology. Why the US wants to continue dragging it over in ships from the ME is beyond me. Oh wait... its blamed on the environmentalists.
I have driven the pipeline from Valdez to Prudhoe Bay. The footprint is small.... really small. If anything 95% of what is wreaking havoc on Alaska's ecosystem comes from outside Alaska... from the 6-7% that consumes 80% of the Earths resources. Even the republicans here are environmentalists. Realistically you would think the everyone in the industrialized world would be environmentalists... but alas...
There are fewer than a million people in Alaska and it is 1/3 the size of the lower 48. In truth Alaska has far more in common with Canada than the rest of the US. We look alike, dress alike, and even spend each others money... eh.

Wayne,
It is true that Neptune is often implicated in matters of compassion, flakiness, and credulity, but it is also often implicated in matters of deceit and hypocrisy. I do not think that liberals have a lock on the planet.
In my experience, there are many different philosophical paths to one party affiliation or the other. Some are liberal because they have seen too much machination by the elite. Others are liberal because they have seen too much poverty. Others are liberal for ridiculous reasons.
I remember a speech by John Lindsey, mayor of New York City. He said he was a Republican because his father was and because so was his father's father before him. Of all the good reasons to be Republican, that one must be the very dumbest.
If, as is almost universally claimed by conservatives, most of the press corps is liberal, then Neptune has little if anything to do with it.
It is true that the poor tend to vote liberal, and it is true that the poor tend to have prominent Neptunes, but that is an isolated example that does not justify a wide brush stroke.

We spend too much time criticizing the Bush presidency which is all but over...most political historians rank Bush Jr. and Clinton neck and neck as they do Carter and Ford, both cases of which I disagree, Id take Gerry Ford dead over Carer again if i had to....
Is this presidency a failure? Probably. However, more for social reforms than for anything else..thats teaches us to elect a president with a bundle chart...such charts are excellent for some things, president isn't one of them...but these 8 years are largely the result of the other party to nominate a stronger candidate than this putz...this country runs on the lesser of two evils or the opposition as opposed to do things because of positivity...
Condie Rice is no fool, whether she agrees with Bush politics is irrelevant, she saw her legacy...she could go down as a decorated provost at standord law or be the first female black secretary of state...duh! its more about personal glory than politics, same thing with Colin Powell....do gooders my left foot...the days of public service are over...the me generation arrived before i got here in 1980 id say post world war 2 basically was it..

monarchy and dynasty aren't the same thing, but bush and clinton clan appear similar. giuliani has a bundle chart. hilary a bucket with a moon for handle. both have an excess of leo.
i thought the bell curve folks were full of it as well. some think iq is something to clobber others over the head with... they have low eq basically.

Like the Bush-ling cabinet inner circle... in general... from beginning to end... Condi Rice is a perfect example of the Peter Principle in action. Shame really... so she ran with the high rollers?... look who they rolled. I mean you don't see African-Americans lining up behind the Republican party because of Condi.
The outer planets seem like markers of time to me. They should signal lessons in maturity... or lack there of. Our country had just celebrated its bi-centenial... Tropically Pluto was in Libra when we had a Libra president. I think inherently we as a nation wanted to find balance... after Nixon et al. Were we perhaps falling under the seduction of the television media. Uranus in Scorpio...?
With domestic oil supplies dwindling and the auto industry/labor unions putting out gas guzzlers that lasted 50k miles tops the US was functioning at an extreme as if it couldn't end. I remember being outraged when gas went up to 57 cents a gallon. Made a lot of people upset... perhaps disillusioned... Neptune in Sagittarius?
Ya know... I lived through them... and I don't think the Carter years were all that bad... but they were years of economic correction... which are often difficult... people don't like to pay the piper for past excesses... on the other hand it was a time when one of our presidents was able to actually negotiate a peace deal in the MIddle East... and for awhile some people actually considered figuring out ways of releasing the M.E. oil nipple that held the entire country hostage... so we had to work a little harder... his sucessor armed Saddam as a remedy... but what do you expect from a sock puppet.
The planetary Grand Alignment period of 1982-84 at time of great expectations found our nations soul plunged further into the oily bosom of the ME. Here we are 20 years later Pluto has dragged itself through Scorpio... and a housing bust... the result of bad lending practices... and into Sagittarius and now we sound like prostitutes adorned in furs and baubles bitching about our pimps... and how we got to fix em. Heck we even have those that expatriated their homes in foreign lands to come seek the American dream by choice who like spending the money while whining about how its done joining the chorus . Real smart. Anyway sosdd... politics as usual.
BTW Venezuela donates heating fuel to low income Alaskans living in the bush. Even with global warming (which is very real) ... it gets cold in the Arctic Circle. Captain Kangaroo informed me when Alaska became a state... I was getting ready for school. US is always changing.
As I've said before Rudy with his Jupiter/Moon configuration just seems like someone that the Republicans thought Bush-ling was when they stood together on the rubble + 3k corpses. I'm just not so sure that there are enough people that nostalgic for more.

This may be what some are questioning in terms of the Leo content of many of the charts of the candidates. Leos tend to be about Leo - it's the nature of the sign or at least one possibility.
The word noble has come up regarding Mars in Leo - I can see that in the sense that a true and honorable Leo/monarch-type will take care of the pride. One just has to determine exactly who fits into the pride. If it is the entire nation, then that's well and good. If some are left out or left behind, then that creates problems.
Many complaints about Giuliani had to do with his attack on civil liberties and the manner in which he "cleaned up" New York City. So one could say that he was taking care of one portion of the pride, but not really addressing the needs of the other portion. One always has to look towards cause and effect - how did a situation come to be? It isn't always enough to clean it up if you don't address the root of the problem.
When ants come into your house, you can vacuum them up and spray like crazy, but if you don't find the source of where they are coming in, those few little scouts will return and bring their buddies.

The word noble has come up regarding Mars in Leo - I can see that in the sense that a true and honorable Leo/monarch-type will take care of the pride. One just has to determine exactly who fits into the pride. If it is the entire nation, then that's well and good. If some are left out or left behind, then that creates problems. Many complaints about Giuliani had to do with his attack on civil liberties and the manner in which he "cleaned up" New York City. So one could say that he was taking care of one portion of the pride, but not really addressing the needs of the other portion. One always has to look towards cause and effect - how did a situation come to be? It isn't always enough to clean it up if you don't address the root of the problem.

more data on giuliani to mine astrologically..
In dismal weather, Rudy and Judi were married on May 24, 2003 on the lawn of Gracie Mansion facing the East River. The altar under the flower decorated tent was surrounded in yellow flowers. Mayor Michael Bloomberg officiated the wedding ceremony.
Andrew Giuliani: Born January 30, 1986. His mother is Donna Hanover.
Caroline Giuliani Born July 22, 1989. Her mother is Donna Hanover.
Giuliani has been married three times. On October 26, 1968, soon after he graduated from law school, he married his second cousin, educator Regina Peruggi, whom Giuliani had known since childhood. In the mid-70s the marriage was in trouble and in 1975 they agreed to a trial separation. Giuliani filed for legal separation from Peruggi on August 12, 1982.
Giuliani and Hanover then married in a Catholic ceremony at St. Monica's Church in New York on April 15, 1984.
Giuliani subsequently married Judith Nathan on May 24, 2003
Giuliani has said that if elected President, he will have his wife sit in on Cabinet meetings.[140]
At a public appearance in Derry, New Hampshire on August 16, 2007 an audience member, Katherine Prudhomme-O'Brien asked him, "[H]ow you could expect the loyal following of Americans when you are not getting it from your own family?" Giuliani replied, "I love my family very, very much, and I would do anything for them. The best thing I can say is kind of, 'Leave my family alone, you know, just like I'll leave your family alone.' If you want to judge me or I want to judge you, we'll judge each other on our public performance. I don't know your private life. You don't know my private life.
these dates will be helpful for anyone interested in coorelating them to his speculative birth time of 2:30pm.. i may comment later after i have had a chance to examine them..
folks - lets get back to astrology.

Donna Ann Kofnovec Hanover: Born on February 13, 1950 in Oakland, California.
Judi Ann "Judith" Stish (Nathan) Giuliani born December 16, 1954 Hazleton, Pennsylvania.
i found it unbelievable when i read the quote below and thought, what does this guy expect when running for pres of the usa? does he think his private life as complicated as it is, is not a reflection of his character and as a consequence of concern to those who might consider voting for him as pres? i sure would.
>>If you want to judge me or I want to judge you, we'll judge each other on our public performance. I don't know your private life. You don't know my private life.<<, nice quote for someone with an upper hemisphere emphasis too...

The truth is that astrologically his jupiter-moon conflicts with both the republican parties moon at 24 Scorpio and the USA chart at 27 Aquarius (approximately)and that conflicts with Values and the public..the opposition with the USA chart is not so much as difficult a burden as the Republican chart because the square will constantly show his "character flaws"
The opposition is not as much an issue as "opposites attract" and there is a degree of common if he can make it to a federal election, but such a feat is largely impossible..
Divorce is not the hampering it used to be, one divorce is really pretty common, but two divorces and three marriages not to mention an estranged two children and a hostile ex wife is a little too much to stomach...Kerry's ex wife was supportive just mentally unstable...McCain's ex wife even admitted she voted for him and full supports him...Reagan and Dole's ex wives made few if any comments at all...but this is a very different situation..it shocked even NYers and we stomach more than most
Republicans are slower than most to adapt the changing times, but in Guliani's case hes ahead of the curve...the Sun-Uranus conjunction, the leo stellium is simply too radical a chart...the republican party isnt going to abandon almost thirty years of Reaganite politics to throw their weight around this renegade...to go from Bush a Reagan wannabee and "two term" winner is kind of a stretch
Now if he had run as a Democrat then he would have a stronger chance federally at least, but as a Republican, values hurt a great deal

Stands Pat with a Full House, interesting observation you have that the poor often have a prominent Neptune. I have not noticed that.
My own experience is that early poverty at least is due to Luna afflictions, especially Moon Square Saturn, which may be the most difficult of all aspects as it affects all areas of life. Ongoing poverty due to incompetence is as much a Second and Sixth House situation, as well as Jupiter and Saturn afflictions, showing bad judgement. Of course laziness plays its part. Again Moon Square Saturn and a lot of Venus and Neptune in the chart will generally produce a lazy person, as does Mercury Square Jupiter interestingly. Even though Squares are often considered to be energizing they fritter away their energy, especially in the Mutables.
I will have to consider your observations regarding Neptune a bit longer. Thanks.

We must remember that the moon is the most personal of all planets as it is the fastest moving...but it also rules the public and because politicians are on public view constantly it can be their greatest strength and greatest weakness...the moon also has alot to do with politics and perhaps not coincidentally personality which is really the basis of elections...the moon also rules childhood and how much does politics change from childhood? its still a popularity contest!

Rudy's personal attitudes do seem contrary to the Republican Party's current stance. I went to Ahhhhnuld Schwartzenegger's chart he is one that has expressed similar values to those often expressed by Rudy and as it turns out his Moon is in Capricorn in 6th.
Of course as would be expected Arnold's Leo nature is a Tropical 1st house expression. No hidden agendas. Possibly that is why his values are more palatable to the conservatives even though he is pretty darn liberal on many fronts.
On some level Rudy's Jupiter/Moon "gives him permission" to break the rules.

perhaps this is one of the reasons astrologers of the past had some success in spite of the lack of info or computers - they were able to isolate the most significant astrological point in a chart in reference to the event, or circumstances at hand... i agree with m's comments on the moon and in general in relation to politics..
with that in mind a time for hilary is in dispute on the hilary thread with someone suggesting an earlier time - moon 19 pisces and virgo rising... regardless, when bringing it all down to the moon, the difference is moon in pisces, verse moon in leo with giuliani and hilary. i think moon in pisces would be better at this time for the american public..i am not a fan of her, but just on the basis of this one astro factor, i view her as more favourable. the saturn uranus opp is at 18 mutable at hilarys moon if we accept the earlier time given for hilary. i suppose it is too early to consider them the 2 contenders, but it is something to ruminate on.

I see Rudy as a republican for these reasons only- A definite need to identify with a primitive notion of masculine 'power'. Stellium in Leo; mars pluto conjunction in leo; sun and uranus quintiles to jupiter in positive signs, which dominate over all. Venus and mercury have too much on their hands here; the sense of balance and curiosity is tilted toward justification and temporal resolve. The stated quintiles are horrified further by the separating moon jupiter conjunction; this could give a sense of real concern for his more than immediate environment, but instead likely expands his sense of entitlement as far as what is right for other people; he knows, you don't. This is a chart of mercurial bombast that talks a good game. The venus trine to the ascendent, Neptune, and rising point have confused the native himself. I sense the transits of Pluto and Orcus, in a nasty trine, are about to play some very wicked tricks on him. His skeletons are pouring out of the closet. His enemies are waiting to pounce. Only a Neptune rising would consider the foolishness he is about to indulge. Too bad, as it can be a very considerate placement. Alas, he has indulged his sextiles dry...

i tend to think of venus in taurus as a conservative placement, not given to radical change and preferring to keep things steady and constant.. in giuliani's chart the conflict with the leo planets seems to have been borne out in his married and family life at a minimum. it leads me to conclude that the leo planets take precedence over the venus in taurus. either that or the mercurial energy - virgo rising possibly, or gemini sun/uranus placement can't be contained by the venus in taurus. nor is it helped by the strong desire nature of the mars/pluto, or the moon/jupiter conj all in leo.. typically standard astrology says venus mars in square relationship is unfavourable for relationships, the person waxing/waning between feelings of love/hate. i think this is probably the case with giuliani, although it may not be what we see with a superficial glance.
perhaps his venus nature has shown more consistancy in his political involvement, but upon reviewing this i noticed he was initially a democrat.. clearly the uranus energy has given him a certain level of freedom that other more conservative types would not have been open to, let alone take it.
the other part to the chart that connects with his lack of conservativeness is the missing water element.. water is by nature conservative, but it is missing in his chart also.. i think all of this points to giuliani being more of a solo maverick then a good representative of the republican party... now one could say the republican party is no longer anything like it used to be, with which i would agree.. whether they are wanting to go further out on a limb, or change course at this point in time, i don't know.
i think the part of his chart that loves being tough on crime is coming out of the mars/pluto conjunction. and it will always be a grandiose display with the moon/jupiter conj all in leo. whether he has virgo rising, i don't know but it would feed into this also. i think he is willing to run ramshod over the neptune rising part of his chart. he may not want to identify or examine the deeper reasons why folks resort to crime, but rather just lock them away in a cell somewhere - 3 strikes yer out ideology.. i don't think the neptune rising fits with this narrow view, so i am of the opinion he is cutting off a part of himself to hold onto the republican lovefest with carrying the baton for the war on crime... this whole ideology has been given a hugh outlet via the 9-11 event. clamping down on freedoms and liberties that have been under threat from before 9-11 has only gotten worse and it would seem giuliani is quite alright with all of it. this is why i view him as more of a radical fascist type leader willing to subjugate personal freedoms for state control.. bush has done the same thing.. perhaps this is the new ideology of the republican party. hopefully the christians that gave them their votes during bushs tenure will question it all with giuliani and the baggage of his personal past... i can't see him winning the leadership in the republican party, but i could be very wrong on this. leadership races have a way of negating characteristics and qualities that i would consider a very important consideration. they are essentially a media 'crowning' event due the central significance of the media at this point in time.

Sandstone: Fixed Earth? You make a good point about Taurus potential for conservative leanings. Sidereally his Sun and Venus are in Taurus and he has Earth ASC. Taurus rules is 9th so I think his conservative thinking are part of his philosophy... his disorganized life history seems to contradict groundedness.
Gemini Saturn square ASC. but conjunct MC might be the culprit.

air feeds fire... water nurtures earth... giuliani has planets feeding the fire planets, but nothing to nurture the earth... consequentially it is a scorched earth policy that he holds politically.. that is one way to read the chart.
he has mercury in taurus applying in semisquare to saturn, all suggestive of a more conservative outlook as well, but perhaps due the aspect, or mercurys sign he is more likely to be quite rigid. this will leave him subject to radical change from time to time, as opposed to being flexible on an ongoing basis mentally. and of course his deepest thoughts are something he is quite guarded in sharing, if he shares them at all due the square to pluto.. i think this is backed up with the station prior to his birth of mercury at 6 taurus.. the mercury/pluto square is a backdrop to his leadership abilities and frankly this suggests to me someone more dictatorial then negotiable. and as witnessed by some of his personal history, the truth may come out later after he is done manipulating. their is some fixity to his chart, but i see it as being ruled by the leo/fire planets, as opposed to the gemini ones. i think what one is unconscious of, rules them. geminis are often good talkers, and many folks are impressed with words and those who can use them- someone very different then bush for example.. however i think the media is a great example of how the public in general is duped by words and images regularly... they (words and images) don't necessarily constitute substance, as much as we would like them to.. this is especially true with politicians. i can't say it is all the medias responsibility.

Some good comments Sandstone...
However, i dont think the water signs are necessarily conservative etc...
Aries is a pioneer so whichever suits him best is where hell go...Taurus likes peace but also resists change, the first party being more Democrat, the latter being Republican..Gemini swings depending on popularity...Cancer is patriotic and security minded, those go hand in hand with the republican party, so alot of cancer leans republican but it depends..Leo is fixed ad often resistant to changing the guard so you will see it show up in Republican's charts such as above...Virgo is free thinking but as an earth sign it resists change, because it rules the middle class and unions it leans Democrat...Libra naturally like Gemini goes by popularity...Scorpio is traditionally conservative more or less because he values character and integrity...Sagittarius can go either way but as an expansionist ends up in Liberal charts...Capricorn exists to serve himself, a total opportunist so whichever lines his pocket best...Aquarius is too democratic and liberal to be anything but Democrat and Pisces is bleeding heart and charitable so you will also see that in Liberal charts...so it depends...
Guliani is not really a republican, hes more a libertarian or what a new england or gypsy moth republican is...Maine, New Hampshire and to a lesser extent Vermont are states that are socially liberal but fiscally conservative...meaning that they dont want taxes, just free market reign but socially one should be able to do as they please...this is more or less the party of progressives...its interesting that a Democrat is not traditionally a "liberal" as they want the economy strongly regulated, whereas the conservatives want a free economy....
African-Americans are not traditionally liberal either, nor are irish americans, they are socially conservative and fiscally liberal...which is i believe conservatism...politics make interesting bedfellows...but as opposed to merely Democrat vs. Republican there are really 4 categories, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian and conservatism...this is probably a better way to research it...but because of the two party system in the USA...libertarians get clumped with Republicans and conservatism gets clumped with the democrats...as usual money seems to be the dividing point

Alot of populists have Gemini rising..Hillary Clinton is probably a Gemini rising, i wouldnt be suprised if John Edwards turned out to be either....there is some debate as to whether Teddy Roosevelt was and of course the biggest one of all was William Jennings Bryan, "the great commoner"...Gemini risings and this can be said for most mutable sign risings tend to sway with the crowd..Hillary is not really liberal in fact i believe she was a Goldwater Republican, there is misconception that since shes a woman shes naturally liberal, this is untrue...
In addition there is no gender conformity in elections...Woman and men do not line up as a whole and vote similarly...so just because Hillary is a woman does not mean shell get the women vote...we see this with Ferraro in '84 where most women bolted and voted for the Republican ticket...
its interesting that the moon rules the public and women in general and there seems to be no distinction between the two during elections, that is to say women as a whole often vote the way the rest of the electorate (men) do

Ferraro ran at the end of the Grand Planetary Alignment. The democratic ticket wasn't all that strong when Mondale and Ferrarro lost to the very popular Reagan. As I recall the election she was pretty popular initially but because she was the first woman to reach that political status she was placed under a incredibly heavy scrutiny.
Her husband engaged in shady business practices with tax problems and her own family were bookmakers. Even though she didn't win she still made history... in fact it was a very exciting era and time of great strides for women in politics... but there was still the attitude that a woman's reputation and credibility tied to her husbands destiny.
The upside to Ferraro period was that it was a time when conservative politics was pushing hard against the Woman's movement... but the Woman's movement pushed back and gained strength.
Hillary's mettle has been tested in the fire and under public scrutiny for decades. She was Hillary Rodham standing up to the Republican party before she was first lady. Different animal all together.
Nancy Reagan made acceptable for a first lady to seek Astrological consultation.
Frankly I think if God herself ran against Reagan she would have lost.

m thanks. pisces might be the least conservative of the water signs, but on balance i would say it is more then it isn't. i think where pisces differs is in the fact it's more open to the sensitivities of the collective, while cancer and scorpio are more focused on the individual. as a result pisces sees/feels the need for a more liberal response to the social factors causing hardship/imbalance in their fellow man... that's assuming they aren't being directly caught up in them, themselves, which is often the case as well. any uranus aspect to a water planet is going to modify all this..
i get the impression you underestimate women to be followers rather then leaders... i think you are mistaken on that.
as for hilarys chart... i think virgo rising with the moon strongly aspecting the asc/desc axis is going to give public popularity as well as more potential of being a politician (or popular figure)..i think 14 virgo with her moon at 19 makes a lot more sense. perhaps someone can do more rectification work on the 2:18am time offered on the hilary thread. i don't believe hilary is gemini rising. i think the time offered by adb on her is wrong.

Not at all, i think women aren't followers, statistically there is no such thing as gender solidarity though...in fact, married women are likely to vote with their husbands..
Minorities in general vote together, but what makes women interesting (even though they arent really a minority)is that they dont identify with women candidates persay...im not a woman so maybe some other voices here can chime in :) statistically speaking women will vote for other issues first such as money or health etc, not just for hillary because shes a woman just like they didnt for ferraro even though she was also...
Which is why I argue that women are very much representative of the electorate, it is one of the few, if only factions, that does not line up by virtue of itself, rather women vote by issue and generally their vote is representative of how in the end most people vote as the sum of all other groups
Catholics voted for Kennedy by majority...Jews for Gore/Liberman by majority...Dutch-Americans for Roosevelt by majority...but women did not vote for Ferraro by majority showing that as a group their is no solidarity in politics...which in my view is the correct one, women as a group see more than just a member of their own gender, whereas most other classes show that their overriding priority is candidate identification by virtue of his or her cultural, religious background

m, i don't know if men are stupid enough to vote for a man just because he is a man either, but it's possible. we need more women in politics.. i say the same thing about music... why do drummers, bass and guitar players have to be predominantly male? it is changing but in some sort of 'normal' situation all things being 'equal', it ought to be equal their too.. men due their great insecurities have been running politics for the last few hundred years. i can't explain it away any other way...
how would giuliani have handled katrina???????? he is like a broken record taking about terrorism and law and order.. are americans stupid enough to buy into that bs and all the fear these political buffoons want to manufacture in that area? what would he have done to help the people who suffered through katrina? somebody ask him that.
giulaini has a saturn/neptune square on the angles, if we have the approx correct time.. in this upper hemisphere chart the saturn/neptune square says to me he identifies more with authority role described by saturn next to the midheaven, while having more difficulty incorporating the neptune... i know he has done some silly acting/dressing up neptune on the horizon type antics, but overall i think he takes himself and his abilities quite seriously... many would say too seriously. he made the statement while in britian a few days ago how he was one of the 4 or 5 best known americans.. how is that for a moon/jupiter conj in leo!!! weird how american politicians have to go to britian to get a royal ascent from the queen- the iron lady- before they can go about their political business....are americans really wanting to latch onto a country they ran away from 3 hundred years ago??? what is up with this monarchy stuff anyway? saturn/neptune is what you see in nurses, musician/composers and people in the helping professions.. i can only speculate that due the upper hemi emphasis he has cast off the neptune rising part, or is using it to strengthen an image that isn't completely him - tough guy who is up for the job of prez. anyone want to comment on the saturn/neptune square as it applies to giulianis chart? i think it is central..
the saturn/neptune midpoint is about the same as the jupiter/pluto midpoint.. in fact a bunch of midpoints gather at about 13/14 leo.... isn't the usa chart moon close to that spot? transiting pluto is exactly sesquisquare that spot on election day..

M - Reagan was an Aquarius - started out as a Dem - was president of the Screen Actors Guild, but went Rep in the 50s. Hillary started out as a Republican, but ultimately worked on the committee to oust Nixon. Her strongest influences were Martin Luther King and Saul Alinsky (a very liberal, liberal). Please check out the H. Clinton thread (if interested) as there is a discussion going on about her chart and the use of 14Virgo as her ASC based on birth data supplied by Zayin. I have collected a number of dates (some with times) and Sandstone has been looking at the event charts as well.
Nuff said about that here.

I will do that Penelope....if she has Virgo rising she is more electable, i figured her a Gemini rising because she "looks" it but as both are Mercurial, Virgo isnt that much out of sorts...
In terms of the square between Neptune and Saturn, i have it, mine isnt angular but i can tell you for the most part you tend to be afraid of things that do not exist...have adverse reactions to types of hormones, chemicals and can be rigid and stern on some occasions and a complete bleeding heart in the other, its a constant tug of war in the emotions, which is why i think that he struggles with his tough guy sort of republican image with his liberal views, which as ive said before makes him a libertarian which tends to be how i swing as well...i make it my point to be more liberal in outlook even though my nature is not necessarily so...im not sure if he thinks that way, but it looks like it...
And that really also sinks up with his ethnic background, hes not a wasp republican like Thompson or Ford, being an italian catholic and the son of relatively poor immigrants i think he is more apt to sympthathize with women's rights, gay rights and religious rights...when you are in the majority sympathy is usually alot harder to cultivate and i think thats how the saturn-neptune square plays out

m - thanks... that would explain giulianis fixation with terrorism(>>you tend to be afraid of things that do not exist<<).. does he have to plague the usa with it like bush and the repubs have already? that is the neptune(plague) coming out, lol. hilary doesn't seem any better though and i don't know what her excuse is.. the other way to interpret these political actions is fear sells and will increase the odds of voters considering you viable.. we know what it does for the military industry lobbyists and who they will or won't bankroll. maybe that is all their is to it.. it sure isn't about the number of attacks on usa soil that have happened since 9-11.. nor has the concern over it being an inside job gone anyway either.. i do think saturn/neptune concerns oneself with imagined(neptune) fears(saturn) more then usual.. it makes sense they would have a certain paranoia around diet and a host of other things too.. a basic fear of the unknown can come out a few different ways. challenging oneself in this area is necessary... maybe folks with saturn squares to the outer planets shirk the responsibility unless it is forced on them... folks need to challenge this dude on his automatic terrorist rhetoric.

Jupiter in leo, the romantic clown.
But gemini can be as much a clown as sagittarius.
He has the part of fortune in sagittarius in the 3rd.. I saw a publicity photo of him on a subway train and wearing a baseball cap.

I don't feel him as presidential material. He has good qualities but his energy is tied up in his passions, Mars conjunct Pluto, sextile Venus trine Neptune. Venus rules his horoscope from the eight in Taurus. I don't feel it. He is a wonderful seducer but he does not have a mind to embrace the complexities of being president. For example when it came to Bill Clinton's second term election, it was clear he would be elected. Interestingly GWB got elected at the beginning of Saturn's obscure phase, atime to retire from the public. No I still don't see Giuliani as president.

>>> how would Giuliani have handled Katrina???????? he is like a broken record taking about terrorism and law and order.. are Americans stupid enough to buy into that bs and all the fear these political buffoons want to manufacture in that area? what would he have done to help the people who suffered through Katrina? <<<
Well, probably better than "good job Brownie", or the ongoing nightmare of the monumental idiot G W Bush.
Rudy is competent indeed. Mars in Leo does not screw around with details like Mars in Virgo does. It does things quickly, and dramatically. Rest assured that Rudy would have taken care of business and we wouldn't be dealing with the hopeless idiocy that is still going on in New Orleans with the worthless, totally stupid and corrupt mayor Nagin in charge. That bum wanted $100 billion to pass through his hands, just like you would give a 2-year old a loaded Uzi! The even more worthless governess Blanco is still around ... Both Nagin and Blanco are totally incompetent. I'm not surprised they don't walk with their heads held in shame.
Rudy would have bypassed both of these idiots and dealt with the situation alone, quickly and efficiently. Hillary would have too.

wayne, naomi klein has a book out called 'the shock doctrine'. this is from a michael byers review of her book. http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/reviews/tragic-consequences
for a full review see link above..
she refers to the approach as disaster capitalism and uses new orleans as an example.. >>>In New Orleans, the devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina created an opportunity to replace public schools with privately run, publicly funded "charter" schools, and public housing projects with upscale hotels and gated communities. Hundreds of thousands of poor, disproportionately black American citizens have been permanently displaced, while billions of dollars were doled out through untendered contracts to many of the same corporations that have been active in Iraq.<<<
where is the leadership to address the inequity here? i see katrina as an issue of how americans look after their own and what i see isn't pleasant. will giulaini or clinton be any different? a lot of taxpayer money goes to the mercenaries in iraq - blackwter and etc - at present.. is this how and where usa folks want their money spent? the juxtaposition of katrina to americians war in iraq is very disturbing to most folks on the planet. i like to think most americans would see it the same way, but i have no idea if that is the case.
i hope you are correct in the abilities of giuliani and clinton.. i am not so confident.
i think the clash described by the opposition of saturn and uranus is calling for a more radical shift to resolve the outstanding conflicts facing the usa today.. either that or usa is destined to go the same way the roman empire did and it appears it is well on its way, with the smart money already relocated elsewhere. us$ is saying that this past week.

I think that Giuliani would be a much better President than our current one. His Gemini planets indicate a willingness to respond to information and to be flexible which is essential as President. With the Leo planets, he would be decisive and a strong leader. However, with Neptune on the AC, he will be vulnerable to scandal and most likely will not always tell us the truth. So though he would be a step up from our current President, I do not support him.
http://themediamessiahblog.blogspot.com/

Odd, I had never really absorbed that Bush had Mars in Virgo - seems kind of unlike him. Not sure he 'screws around in details' - seems to do quite the reverse. Perhaps the fact that it's his only earth sign puts him out of touch with it. Maybe in private he does check his stockbrokers' and bank statements being in 2nd house. Can't say I'm as impressed by Mars in Leo as Wayne especially for fixing practical problems or indeed more to the point having the forethought to prevent them arising. I would have thought that Mars in Virgo in a sensible chart where its energy was utilised might have been precisely what New Orleans needed - someone with the engineering interest to check sea walls, rising tides etc. Or Mars in Capricorn. Quick skip thro' politicos list for Mars in Leo gives Al Gore, Alberto Gonzales, Bill Richardson, Boris Yeltsin - hands-on fixit-types doesn't readily spring to mind.

Pardon the abort.
Today begins 50 yr. commemoration of the Little Rock desegregation crisis of 1957 during which Eisenhower federalized the National Guard to enforce integration in a Little Rock high school. The reverbs were heard around the world for many years to come. Later this week Hillary and Bill will be on hand for dedication of the visitors center as there is now a permanent memorial to the original 9 black students who were brave enough to rise to the challenge of integrating an all white, Southern school.
I was able to gather bios on all nine students: (f)Wills.........Dec 18, 1942 (f)Eckford...... Oct 4, 1941 (m)Green.........Sept 22, 1941 (f)Kalmark ......Sept 26, 1942 (m)Thomas........Sept 1, 1942 (f)Beals ........Dec 7, 1941 (f)Trickey.......Sept 11, 1941 (m)Roberts.......Dec 3, 1941 (f)Wair..........Nov 29,1940 Bloomburg,TX (all births in Little Rock, Ar except where noted)
Melba Beals wrote the definitive book on the experience, "Warriors Don't Cry". While at Central High School she was assaulted with a switchblade, a group of white boys tried to set her on fire. She went on to earn an M.A. in journalism from Columbia,later she adopted twin boys who were born to a Russian Jew mother and a black man.
Five of the students have Mars in Aries. All of the students were born with Saturn conj Uranus. They all have had successful careers. source:http://www.arktimes.com/Articles/ArticleViewer.aspx?ArticleID=2c9015d8-242c-46e4-8c26-626dd395a64d

Marjorie, Mars in Leo is arguably the most powerful position for the planet, with the exception of Capricorn. The latter applies control and caution to the action but it is effective.
As for Mars in Leo not foreseeing problems, well I think those are Mercury and Saturn functions. Mars doesn't plan, it acts. In Leo it acts boldly, broadly and dramatically. It's the "big" personality that fills the room. No one ever doubts where Mars in Leo stands - it is blunt, opinionated, forthright, honest, often ego-maniacal and delightfully arrogant.
Mars in Virgo is none of these; Bush's ridiculous "swagger" is due to Sun Square Moon/Jupiter and possibly Leo rising, but we note that the idiot no longer bores us with his swagger, he bores us with his stubbon insistence on killing brown people and spending us into bankruptcy.
Mars and Virgo actually dislike one another, and the position engenders general unpopularity. It can be argumentative, scheming, underhanded and devious, meticulously planning every move in agonizing detail. Lyndon Johnson, another failed President, who escalated the war in Vietnam, had Mars in Virgo. He micro-managed the war disastrously.
I think Virgo is probably one of the worst placements for Mars since the planet is continually irritated that it cannot improve everything around it.
Despite its frustration well aspected and in a strong chart it probably gives an interest in and ability for dealing with complex machinery, intricate and detailed work etc.

i am in generalagreement with marjories comments on mars in virgo... mars in leo in a mans chart is nothing to be impressed with.. all show, but not so much substance to back it up...good for a politician prior to election i suppose..bring on the fanfare, and keep on waiting for the substance to back it up. these folks need to stick to entertainment as it isn't a position inclined to get work done... i know 3 men with this placement... i know a few folks with mars in virgo and for getting down to biz, i would go with the mars in virgo any day of the week... stick with a mars in earth in a mans chart for a better use of the martial energy, excepting maybe taurus. mars/pluto conj is a different matter. it might be good in a criminals chart, but it depends on the level it operates in an ordinary chart. it gives one extra stamina and forcefulness, along with sexual appetite. it can be a ruthless position depending on where it is situated in the chart.. i think it is a dangerous combo to have in a chart, without giving examples for good or bad...

sandstone, the Mars/Pluto Conjunction in Leo can be fatally violent no doubt, in the case of the moronic. In fact, I expect Hillary is surrounded by violence, chaotic energy, more so than would normally be the case with someone who splits the public the way she does. They love her, they hate her .. aahh we all saw it first, but I will quote this a couple of years from now.
Mars and Pluto actually like one another, they are happy with one another, especially in Leo, a sign that both enjoy. They frolic and play in Leo, knowing they are essentially invincible. They are brothers in a sense, and they also understand the immense power that they can unleash together. No one dare mess with Mars/Pluto in Leo. IN a regulated and controlled person this power is nothing to worry about. When did Paul McCartney or Ringo Starr, both of whom have the conjunction, last commit a violent or anti-social act? Hillary is not violent at all, but she is an immensely powerful personality, beyond strong-willed, resolute, immensely resilient and she will never back down under any circumstances. I would call that practical.
Mars in Virgo is boring, pedestrian and common in every way, bent over their stamp-collections or mending clocks ...

lol - stamp collections... somehow i think boring would be better in a politician. however with so many americans (and canucks) infatuated with hollywood, including the media who have essentially turned everything into a type of hollywood, the razzle dazzle of mars in leo trumps the boring practical nature of mars in virgo.. i have given virgos a hard time in the past here at adb, but i do respect the mars in virgo position. bush junior had the prenatal station of mars in cancer where his sun is.. i think he has characterized a mars in cancer and 12th house type energy more then any mars in virgo.. perhaps due its singleton nature of sole planet in earth has something to do with it. every action he has taken has basically backfired - more like a 12th house thing.
i think the love hate thing is a good way to describe pluto energy... hilary also has the venus/pluto square which is further intensified with venus in scorp.. that is a rather wicked combo in itself, perhaps softened with the moon in pisces.
bottom line is if either hilary or rudy have some practicality to them it isn't coming out of the mars/pluto leo position.. perhaps their saturn position and if rudy has virgo rising, both of their virgo ascendant positions. lets face it, leo is not practical... all fire signs struggle with practicality.. that is what is so much fun about them!

sandstone, I meant no disrespect to stamp collectors. I have collected stamps for 40 years and have over a million stamps from every country in the world. (I recently snagged a MINT France five-franc gray 1863, Scott 37. You never see these MINT. Five grand ... aahh whatever it's a beautiful stamp. A mint Penny Black and the first stamps of 26 countries) I have Saturn in Virgo by the way.
In any case, the term "practical" is usually applied to Earth signs. But as such the term is superficial. Earth and Mars is usually pedantic, barren of ideas, stubborn and unpleasant. Mars dislikes Earth as much as it dislikes Water.
Really practical people are those who get things done quickly and efficiently, with minimum fuss. That's why you need Mars in Leo - it puts everything together quickly, without issue, and if you get in it's way you are eliminated.

Rather amused vis a vis this discussion to find the below in recent Stock Market astrology newsletter. Kind of sums Mars in Leo up as far as I'm concerned. Speedy maybe. Efficient? Dunno about that.
He was talking about Bernanke and Paulsen: "Fire signs: strong on action, low on patience, and worry about today - not tomorrow. Let the good times roll! We'll deal with the hangover (inflation, worthless currency problems) later."

bernanke has mars/neptune conj in libra.. paulsen had mars/saturn conj in cancer. not exactly shining stars to represent the fire sun signs, lol.. - greenspan has mars in cappy. robert rubin has mars in leo, with sun and neptune in virgo.. Paul A. Volcker had mars in virgo, with sun, mercury and venus their as well... fun to see where mars is in the financial persons world.

Marjorie, you seem unconvinced about Mars in Leo and long term thinking. Once again, Mars is action. It is not compliance, reflection, consideration or any kind of thought. Mars simply acts.
Talk to J P Morgan, who single-handedly fended of a collapse in the US economy in 1893 (he profited enormously of course), or perhaps you should talk to Donald Trump, who always seems to be ahead of the game, have you noticed? Hey, Henry Ford knew a thing or two about business you know. These men were/are doers and actors who do things on a grand and massive scale. Huge egos no doubt, and wonderfully huge.
Just a few examples of the immense potential power of Mars in Leo. These are people whose personality fills the room as soon as they walk in. They know it and you know it, and you will never forget when you met someone with Mars in Leo.
Mars in Leo is a brilliantly arrogant, loud-mouthed braggart, and still everyone loves him because he is essentially good, generous and noble. Contrast this with Mars in Virgo, who is forever digging around in the dirt wondering how deep he needs to dig to make it all worthwhile ...

My dear friend Kathy has Mars in Leo and she is anything but a loud-mouthed braggart. In fact, she's incredibly soft spoken. However, she worked her way up from being a paralegal supoorting two sons on her own to become a vice-president at a top music company. When I suggested that she didn't seem the type (the soft-spoken, sweet type) to make the types of deals she needed to make to hold such a position - she responded that she just loved the negotiating and wheeling and dealing.

penelope, i guess i stereotype... i think mars and sun connotate men more then women and moon venus women, more then men... maybe i need to rethink that approach. what are her moon/venus and ascendant signs and what outer planets are aspecting those positions? send me a private e mail if you don't want to tell me here. a birthchart would be most interesting.

Penelope trust me that your friend Kathy is full of confidence and brightness when necessary. While she may appear to you to be sweet and gentle it is only because she detects that in you.
Mars in Leo is generous and big-hearted in that it never bullies others and is considerate in that it never askes more than it is prepared to give. Send my missives to your friend Kathy ... she will understand.

Hi Wayne - Oh, I don't doubt that - one doesn't rise in the music industry without a hard core and lots of drive and ambition. She enjoys her job. She also raised two boys on her own when her husband left her during her second pregnancy. She was the first female director in her company. We have been friends for almost 50 years and I am quite proud of her. She is at an age when most in the industry are retired or being forced out, but her boss offered to re-up her contract - so she's smart and great at her job and, has to be, personable.
What's great is she really knows and understands me and that is treasure beyond words.

Wayne - BTW - thanks for the compliment.

Wayne, You do seem very thirled (to use a Scots expression) to Mars in Leo. Noble? - Alberto Gonzales, Yeltsin?? I'm sure it has a very beautiful side if a touch bombastic for us meek Virgos. I just query whether it would have been much use in the Katrina situation. Might have cheered everyone up and taken their mind off their woes (and irritated quite a few) but practical solutions? I think not. And why so down on Mars in Virgo - exceedingly useful placing. I don't have either so can be entirely dispassionate on the point. On a quick flip thro' a good many politicians have Mars in Gemini or Libra (the talking signs).

I always prefer the weaker placements to show the "strength" of the sign...Mars in Leo doesn't come across to me as anything particularly special, its not a horrible placement, its just ok...in many cases its worth looking at planet placements only in their strong and weak placements...for instance Bush's Mars in Virgo isn't really a stand out position and hes not really known or not known for his decisiveness..someone like Clinton with Mars in Libra is probably worth looking at or Reagan who had it in Capricorn, quite a few presidents have it weak or strong, Nixon with it in Capricorn, Ford with it in Taurus, Kennedy with it in Taurus, Eisenhower with it in Capricorn, Calvin Coolidge has his in Cancer, Harding had his in Scorpio, Teddy Roosevelt had his in Capricorn and yet many have it with no particular dignity, Bush Jr with it in Virgo, Bush senior, Woodrow Wilson and Carter with it in Aquarius, LBJ had it in Virgo as well, F.D.R had it in Gemini...i find mars in leo is to be more decisive than not, with an enjoyment of competitive activity...i dont think it makes a particularly great anything...Truman was a decent president and was decisive...Hoover who also had it there wasnt at all decisive....The strong or weak ones tend to make more decisive presidents...Virgo in LBJ's case was very analytical, he read a million newspapers and got everyones opinions before making a decision...Bush Jr. follow's Jesus' opinion...Woodrow Wilso and Carter were stubborn as all hell, Wilson refused to compromise on the league of nations and wound up getting it destroyed..Jimmy Carter micromanaged himself to death..Personally i think the cardinal mars positions are best...most decisive..in leo it can go either way

When I agreed that Guilliani is competent, it was not based upon Mars in Leo which is not impressive. Mercury-square-Mars/Pluto is competent in political and military matters and would be better suited in mutables. Leo stelliums are pompous far more often than they are noble and they usually put on airs. Nobility is rare and not usually associated with Mars in Leo.
But Mercury-square-Mars/Pluto is oh so easily diverted to crime.

I think if it is a healthy Mars in Virgo the placement could work. Organized practical directed force... results oriented.
A bad example of Mars in Virgo is US president Bush-ling that doesn't sully himself or his with the dirty details of battle... or dare I mention thier names aloud? ... Britney Spears...Charles Manson.
Not knocking Mars in Virgo altogether but Mars is such a busy fellow I think you need to see what the planet is working with first. I think Jackie Bouvier, Fred Nietzche, Sylvester Stallone... are decent examples of people with Mars in Virgo.
Stallone's b'day is very close to Bush-lings and both men used violence in different ways... Satallone uses violent myth as a cultural catharsis... Bush-ling uses actual violence as societal remedy.
Guilianni is more of a show off... and quite frankly a chameleon with his Mars placement in Leo.

Marjorie, I'm actually not down on Mars in Virgo. Nothing wrong with the Sign - I just think Virgo is not an especially easy Sign for Mars to express iself through easily. I think most psychological problems, or blocks, develop because people are unable to properly express themselves eaily, and Mars doesn't seem to do so well in Earth or in any Mutable Sign for that matter. I think it prefers Fire and Air, where it can play freely, than Earth. Mars can be most self-destructive in Water.
Mars in Aries or Leo is very good in emergencies, acting qiickly and decisively, and in that sense it's practical. It is also supremely confident in Fire, which inspires others.

Well I agree with the old writers, most of whom found Mars to be "exalted" in Capricorn and therefore very strong. The inner control of Capricorn uses Martian energy wisely and carefully and rarely wastes time or energy. I suppose the keyword would be "efficient". The test of success in life is whether Saturn manages to control Mars.
I would say Leo is the second-best placement giving a strong sense of adventure, a "big" personality, an enterprising spirit, completely fearless. I think it is better in a male chart as women with Mars in Leo tend to be "over the top" so to speak, aggressive, blunt and abrupt to the point of rudeness, even though they also express the good side of the position - cheeriness, confidence, with a positive outlook on life.

So today Bush asked Congress for an EXTRA $43 billion for funding his stupid war in Iraq. The total this year will now be $190,000,000,000! This is needed so we can kill more brown people, damage our credibility with the rest of the world even more (if that is possible), and create more profit for the thousands of US companies who are over there feeding at the trough.
Do you remember when that sphincter of a man, V P Dick Cheney, said that the TOTAL cost of the war would be, "under $100 billion"? We are now at $600 billion with no end in sight!
Is it possible to imagine a more useless fool than G W Bush in charge of our country? Well, Rudy had better get on the other side of this disaster of a President because any candidate who aligns himself with the most moronic President in history is doomed.

mars is just a gopher for venus as i see it... venus tells mars what it wants and to go 'out' and get it.. a lot depends on the venus as a consequence... these are inner planets which in a materialistic person will end up bringing them to dead ends and disappointments until they let the planets saturn/jupiter rule the house. now as whether saturn or jupiter is dominant in a persons chart is of importance on this matter as well..
overall i surmise giulaini is extremely focused on his poltical aspirations as represented by venus in taurus in the 9th.. his desire nature as represented by venus is very concrete and his mars position indicates a certain ruthlessness in attaining these same desires. i think the chart indicates a fairly strong/solid character with saturn near the midheaven along with some other astro factors to back it up indicating focus and longer term commitment. the focus is too narrow and self centered for my liking, but perhaps it is a bit much to expect anything else out of many of the politicians that run for office, and in particular the ones successful in getting to the top..
i don't like the movement of saturn down into the dark part of the chart - below the horizon and it doesn't jive with his sun position either... i think if he is elected pres,the usa will be worse off then with hilary... regardless, i don't get to vote!!! i think a lot of folks vote based on the lesser of two evils and i think that is all one is going to get if these two make it to the top..

sandstone, my Christmas wish is that you start using capital letters.
I think Hillary will make it to the Presidency (I wasn't always sure about this for 2009) but then I think it will be absolutely awful Presidency. Not because she is stupid and incompetent like the present Idiot in Chief but simply because we are all in for a massive repositioning of world-powers. You will quote me on this in a few years. We are in for massive shifts in power, unbelievable forces will be unleashed and incredible destruction will be seen such as hs never been seen in history.
I think we will see the first nuclear exchange between countries. I think it will be between India and Pakistan, as strange as that may sound. I think Israel will attack Iran and Iran will retaliate massively and aggressively.
We are really in for a roller-coaster ride, and if you think gold is expensive now just wait BTW I told everyone on this board two years ago to buy gold at $300 an ounce - it is now over $700. I also told you all to buy the Canadian dollar when it was 70 cents - it is now on par with the US dollar - had you listened to me you would have made 30 percent on your money in two years. Now you must shift assets to the Australian dollar and the Indian Rupee, not the Chinese Renmimbi (Yuan) however as there is a secret and shadow trade war with China looming and the Chinese economy is going to be in real trouble anyway because it is over-heating. India is really the power... Buy Rupees, Tata Motors etc.
When the nukes start flying you will want to be in all the gold you can get your hands on .. The US dollar will become worthwhile again however.
By the way, I make a very nice living trading stocks and currencies - I'm not just some lunatic student of astrology.

good thing it isn't christmas yet, lol... i am saving on ink wayne... i'm trying to make up for all the posting i do!

Fleur wrote: "Consciousness is being changed on the collective level via the shake-up we are all experiencing."
And Penelope wrote: "For the record, I have been making posts for a long time about consciousness and karma and personal responsibility. In my humble opinion, I believe, and have believed for a long time, that the Pluto [in Sagittarius] transit of the GC [Galactic Center] was stimulating some sort of Armageddon energy"
It does seem to me that our (USA) wild west, unbridled capitalism has finally caught up with us, and more and more crucial truths related to this are refusing to be suppressed any longer, i.e.:
1) The fact that a big part of the reason we're still stuck in the huge mistake of Iraq is that many huge corporations are still making tons of money there, and those corporations control the Congress.
2)The fact that the USA health care travesty has been caused by the mega-greedy insurance companies. Thankfully, this is finally being addressed in a meaningful manner, i.e., Oprah had Michael Moore (film maker of "Sicko") and the national president of the health insurance companies "duke it out" on her show yesterday, and the audience overwhelming supported Michael Moore's position.
2) The fact that the current autism epidemic is directly related to out of control (too many and too tainted) vaccines. Up until now this too has been largely suppressed by powerful, profit-seeking corporations that make vaccines (in my view) , but it was recently exposed on the Larry King show with his guest, Jenny McCarthy and her book ("Louder Than Words: A Mother's Journey In Healing Autism)."
And I'm sure these are just the tip of the iceberg of Pluto (in Sagittarius, conj. the GC) raising consciousness by saying "WHOAAAAAAA!", slow down, your cowboy capitalism is out of control, and you need to balance (Libra) some other very important things into the equation, too!"

As my lurker friend just reminded me - Pluto will be moving into Cappy very shortly (and will still be conjunct the GC).
She wrote:
After reading in this morning's paper that 425,000 baby "play yards" were recalled after a 10 month old was strangled on one, I had one of those 'AHA" moments.
I've always seen Pluto as both "the hidden and the revealed". Under Sag, religious institutions became more powerful, but ..need I mention the priest scandals? The information about jihad in madrassas?
As he heads ever closer to Cap (big business) more and more is revealed about shoddy, profiteering business practices....the Chinese stuff the tip of the iceberg. Pharma's having to quit making drugs with side effects that were covered up---dangerous bacterial levels in meat and eggies. Demands for closer inspection of foreign products... the agencies in charge of that having cut back drastically on personnel and funding. The current exposure of HMO and insurance companies practices. The popularity of Inconvient Truth and Sicko.
Pluto is telling us "Get the lead out". Quit passively accepting the bullshit about the sacredness of "the free market" to solve all problems. (Say, there's a bumper strip in there somewhere).
I replied: What goes in, must come out. Pluto rules plumbing of all sorts. When he is above ground, he is invisible unless he wears his helmet - but just because we can't see him all the time, doesn't mean he isn't there. Pluto is the great healer in that respect - festering wounds get tended to. Things that are dead give life to new things - like compost, etc. It's just that there is always some sort of nasty smell involved because issues aren't addressed directly.

Well I've read a lot of peoples' opinions about the movement of Pluto in Capricorn. Most of it is the usual Liberal wishful thinking.
Pluto may well be exalted in Capricorn and is most surely happy in the Sign.
What we will probably see over the next 20 years is the "purification" of business, the "refinement" of business practice. Old, worthless business shells that are propped up by corrupt government will be destroyed, as will old governmental systems.
As Pluto works it's way through Capricorn we will indeed live in interesting and troubled times.

I don't think it matters where Pluto is. Times are always interesting... and troubled.
Homie sez: carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.

Zart - you really don't think it matters where Pluto is?
My feeling is that Pluto brings out (or flushes out to continue with my plumbing analogy) the hidden side of whatever sign it is transitting. When it was transitting Scorpio, sexuality, particulary homosexuality, found a voice. With Sag, it was the faith issue. Now we are looking at those things rules by Cappy, structure more than finance, I think, although that certainly is a part of it. Cappy rules the knees, so one would suspect a lot of kneeling and praying might be a part of this cycle.
Times are and will always be rough to some extent, true, that's the point of being here on this planet at all - dealing with those issues. Pluto's transits are one of the ways we are forced to look at things. When in a sign, the issues of the sign cannot be avoided and all the "mistakes" come to light.

carol, penelope and zart.. i like the idea of the galactic centre with pluto transit to it as a way of explaining some of what is going on with the planet.. i don't know if that is it, but searching for an explanation for what is going on with the planet at this time is stimulating.. i tend to agree with zart that times are always interesting and since we are living in them, we tend to think of them as more significant then say 1 or 2 hundred years ago...
however i do also see how technology and the rapid development of our ability to manipulate the enviroment and do things that humans have never done before at such a rapidly changing pace, must connect astrologically in some way... could it be the shift from the age of pisces to aquarius? i think it could be.. i don't know if pluto transits are going to capture everything.. also the transit of neptune through aquarius and eventually into pisces on about april 4th/2011 will coincide with uranus movement into aries, while pluto will have been in capricorn for some time...saturn will be in libra and make a t square with pluto at the top... i think marjorie talked about these 3 in this combo, but it does leave out neptunes movement into pisces.. perhaps at that time their will be a collective realization of the need to spiritualize ourselves and the planet by making changes, and being more concerned with others welfare then with our own... lets hope so..

Penelope: Maybe the comma will help :¬) I don't think it matters where Pluto is, times are always interesting... and troubled. I added the carpe diem (seize the day trust little in the future) from Homer (Homie) because I think it rings true as something to consider while using Astrology. The poem from homer translates something like this:
Don't ask... you may not want to know what death the Gods will give me or you. Don't play with Babylonian fortune-telling. Better just face whatever comes your way now. Maybe you'll see several more winters or this is the last one.. who really knows? What Jupiter gives you is the one even now hitting the rocks on the shore with the waves of the sea--be smart, drink your shirraz, chardonay, or merlot. Scale back your big ideas to today... now. For as we speak, jealous time is running away from us. Seize the day, trust little in the future.
People have been looking at the world with Astrology for a long time. I just don't believe that one nation, one person, one war, or one heavenly aspect will cause universal salvation or pandemonium.
This is not saying that Pluto's transit will not cause something to occur... its that there will be almost 7 billion interpretations of the event.

I don't think that Pluto or any planet really "causes" anything - I have always felt that Astrology can describe what's going on. Gives the big picture as it were. Perhaps I didn't word my comment very well.
As far as carpe diem, many people are so stuck in their chart and their karma that this isn't possible for someone as an individual. Planetary events, particularly transits of the more distant planets like Uranus and Pluto do seem to be the gods rattling our cages.

I've often heard the "causation" argument debated to no end. But we are living in a time of rapid discoveries and one is "subtle energies" which the human is sensitive/receptive towards. Tesla said that our solar system is a giant biological generator.
Also, regarding no planet 'causing' anything. We do not label the moon as a "planet" but a Light, or appropriately a satellite of Earth. When the Moon makes a close perigee to Earth-within 90% of its closest pass-then weather aberrations do occur. Katina followed such a lunation. You can watch other bodies making perigee positions. I once had an entire file of them but lost in a comp crash.
Zart, Pluto in Capricorn will signify many changes when it's in a Cardinal sign. Changes will be personal, social, institutional, and as Penner indicated, global. But as astrologers we rarely judge any planet position by sign alone. It is always the combination that cooks up the changes. If you look at mid-late July of 2010 you will see a powerful combination-Cardinal T-sqr of which I written on here before. It will signify global changing events. Such a pattern formed in 1930-31. Recall the Dust Bowl or severe drought which accompanied the financial meltdown and added to the woes of the period known as The Great Depression.
With Capricorn and Aries so powerful in that T-Sqr I expect martial law to be established in this nation and several others. Also I expect global warming to take an early toll in certain areas of the earth beyond the usual seasons. Potable water will be a sought after commodity.
To assure a Demo victory note the religious wackos which happen to be the largest voting block in the Repub party are talking of a Third Party candidate should Giuliani get the Repub nomination. See NY Times, 9/30/07. I have little faith in any Demo leader's ability to rise to the challenge of 2010. As World alliances begin a 70 year rearrangement there could well be the equivalent of another World War.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/30/christan-conservatives-consider-third-party-effort/index.html?hp

Trust me LWood, I am not contesting any of what is said... I just don't think it is anymore dynamic that when Pluto travels through other signs. Each station has its own charm.
Besides it isn't just Pluto marking universal generational happenings but the aspects of the other slow moving outer planets as well.
All I meant to impart was we can plan for tommorow but only live for today. Don't get stuck on what a transit might mean. We are all born with charts that will determine how we deal with what ever comes our way.

I think Pluto through Capricorn is most important, especially as it exalted in the Sign (some say Leo).
I agree with L Wood in that we are working up to a massive shift in political and economic dynamics, and this shift likely will involve considerable violence.
I have long thought we are ready for a nuclear exchange in some way, and the more I see the world and especially as I watch the transfer of economic power from the US to China, India and Iran, and Iran's unstoppable march toward nuclear hegemony in the region, we are going to see unimaginable destruction.
Pluto in Capricorn will also destroy all structures, social, political and economic, that are corrupted or decaying. I wouldn't go so far as to predict economic catastrophe in the US on the scale of the 1930's, but we are definitely in for the roller-coaster ride of your lives in the next few years.

Well the USA is heading towards a Pluto return so I expect there will be some revolutionary changes. We could use them our act is getting a little stale.
The only advantage Iran has with the nuclear bomb is the ability to control the regions vast oil reserves. Every one talked about what would happen if China went nuke... it got to protect itself from yet another imperialist invasion.Old World countries like India, Pakistan, Isreal are nuked up.... seems everyone wants to control what's theirs and nukes allow for that.
Uranus is @ Tropical 15° Pisces as Pluto does the Galactic Center transit. We could look to things Jovian. Perhaps now that the entire Planet Earth is touchable its possible we are in the midst of a huge revolution.
The thing about Pluto... at least my understanding... is a Phoenix rising from the ashes experience... not something sudden and catastrophic.

Lilli Buck posted some interesting information on the Pavarotti thread about "The Black Hole Book." When I Googled it, I found a page where the author made a prediction about the 1996 election. He picked Dole based on prior research, but said if Clinton was re-elected, it would be similar to Nixon, in that it would be "victory followed by illness, scandal, resignation or death." So pretty much on the money in that respect.
He based his prediction upon Saturn's aspects to different black holes including the mother of them all - the GC. Since this seems right up my alley, I'm going to try to find the book. The address for the author is 11 years old and it doesn't appear to be an Amazon best seller.

The moral majority and co just met to plan a strategy to bolt the republican party is Guliani gets the nomination...its not looking good for him, the scorpio moon of the republican party is very severe...in terms of morals, anti-abortion, morality, gay rights etc...the moon-jupiter here is squaring it...its just too much to get nominated esp if the party wants to keep the religious right, which it does...

Pluto happy in Capricorn? You must be kidding...
I know im a little late to the party, but Capricorn hates change...Pluto is all about it...Capricorn seeks power and wants to stay put...nothing to upset that...Besides Mars is already exalted there...I put Aquarius or Pisces as better fits...I wouldnt expect Pluto to be too bad in Sagittarius but it wasnt exactly peaches and cream there...but in Capricorn, i doubt it...I predict it kicks some problems into gear esp when Saturn floats in Libra in 2 years or so..i see a change in authoritarian regimes...when Pluto was in Capricorn last was in Capricorn was the 1760's and 1770's, keyword revolution, French and American and they werent peaceful either...were looking at some blood...Capricorn and Pluto do have something in common, neither is confined to peaceful measures and neither always play fair...were going to see plenty of uprisings...esp as Uranus hits Aries and Saturn hits Libra...the square with the big planets is going to undo alot of things....

m, i think the pluto transit to giulainis saturn is what this moral majority pulling the plug on him is about..could be the libra sun transit in the area of his first as well.. if he is going to be a fickle wish washy dude on a number of issues, they are going to feed him to the dogs.
my own thoughts on pluto in capricorn are that it is not a great place for pluto... extreme negative manifestation: it is a consolidation of power for all the wrong reasons in all the wrong places... the little guy- cancer- is going to see it just for that too and it won't be pretty.. hopefully the little guy is not going to get screwed in the process, but that is almost a sure thing with pluto going into cappy... taking away freedoms/liberties is just the tip of the slip as pluto gets ready to leave sagittarius. capricorn rules from a position of authority. with pluto helping, it will be gotten in any secretive, subtle or cunning way necessary to manage/dictate/control (with ruthlessness if necessary) it's own version of 'plutonian' power and authority...
me no like it, lol.... reminds me of one of my parents, which is why i have a chip on my shoulder and resent/challenge anyone who looks like an authority figure even when i don't need to!

My feeling about Pluto is that it disrupts and, here we go again with the plumbing analogies, flushes out the negative stuff about the sign that it's in. I see Pluto as a purifier.
As M mentioned Pluto in Cappy during the Revolutionary war - which would also be the time frame for the French Revolution. The little guy did rise up to the "let them eat cake" crowd with gusto and guillotines.
With this mindset - I think that the liberties won't be taken away so much as taken back.

Well put about the nature of Pluto, Penn (I also like that nickname).
M, whenever I hear the "Gore is stiff" idea (which you probably said somewhere else, not here), it always feels like the "The Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome, i.e., where is that coming from?? Whenever I've seen/heard him, he's always seemed very gracious, amiable, personable, smiling, laughing, etc. I just don't get it.

saturn rising is the stiffness characteristic..

Thanks, Carol. Trouble with cleaning anything though, is the mess that's made in the process. You never know what you are going to find that's been lurking in the corners or hidden under a box. I think that Pluto deals with the stuff that psychologists call "the beast in the basement." Often our greatest talents and gifts are part of this package.
Roxanne Carol nicknamed me Penn with the 2 ns. I like it as well and use it in "real life" when people find Penelope more of a name than they want to wrap their tongues around.
Penn it shall be from now on - easier to type.

Wow Penn, is that ever true too about Pluto being "the beast in the basement." And once he's uncovered he HAS to be dealt with. You can't put him off for one second!
Also, interesting about who "penned" (oh, ouch!) your nickname. And all this time I thought it was that fun guy Zayin.

Hi Carol,
She and Zayin are friends. We all hooked up during the Kerry/Bush campaign.
Jeff Green has written 2 books on Pluto and Liz Greene has one. Although I admit I wasn't able to get through the entirety of both of Jeff ?Green's books, what I have gleaned relates a lot to karma and what we bring with us. He ties in Pluto with the nodes and the house positions that the nodes and Pluto occupy.
I've mentioned this comment of hers before - Liz Greene says something to the effect that even when we get to the bottom of the barrel and it's clean as a whistle - we still have the barrel.
The way that I've always seen this is that we come with certain karma and that isn't really going to change much. What, hopefully, does change is our relationship with our karma and how we learn the lessons and make the adjustments necessary to proceed to the next incarnation without the same albatross(es) around our neck.
Pluto represenst those elements (along with Saturn and the Moon) that are so ingrained that we are unable to see them. With Pluto, much of the karmic material is so old and rancid that it is unrecognizable as current behavior. Although if we look closely, you can see the resemblance. It's kind of like "The Picture of Dorian Gray," by Oscar Wilde. The beast in the basement, the portrait in the closet.

Gore's stiffness is not my perception alone, but rather general...he is seen as somewhat awkward and with measured responses...also overly ambitious, not serving as vice president but more as "president-in-waiting"..this i give to saturn in the first house unhappy in its detriment in leo and with the moon in capricorn...it hurt him that he came across as boring and stiff in compared to more comfortable and garrulous clinton and more folksy and common Bush..i blame it on his moon

Penn, I know what you mean about Jeff Green's Pluto/Moon/Node stuff. I've got one of his tapes where he goes into it, and I think I'd have to listen to it a few more times to really get any kind of handle on it, which I plan to eventually do. But I find the material fascinating, not to mention the way he got it, i.e., all in a dream, as you probably know.
M, I definitely know you're not alone on the Gore stiffness comment. It's the common label the media and about everyone else has always given him ever since he came into the public eye.

I don't discount Pluto as influential, I just don't see it as a ruling planet in the individual's chart.

zart do you feel the same about uranus and neptune?

s; Yes I do feel the same way about Uranus, and Neptune. Mostly because of the length of time... in Earth years... is takes for them to complete their orbit around the Sun... our lives...
With the exception of Uranus.. to a point... the majority of people don't live through a Uranus return... I know there are some... but the majority don't for sure no one sees a Neptune Pluto return and the effects of other aspects can be attributed to the inner planets.
I can see how outer planets could play out as a meter of universal generational human events... cultures, evolution, politics etc.
We might see how we would relate to generation we are born to... culture we are born in... but that will have more to do with the inner planets.
Personally I think people were just in too much of a rush to assign meaning to the planets... did so from the archetypes of the names given them by non-Astrologers that named them with the desire to give them a name and nothing more. Astrologers hadn't given them enough consideration and jumped on a bandwagon.
Its just a theory I have come up with based on reading interpretations of "leading" Astrologers... Robert Hand Planets in Transit for one... and several others that gives me this impression.

>>> Personally I think people were just in too much of a rush to assign meaning to the planets... did so from the archetypes of the names given them by non-Astrologers that named them with the desire to give them a name and nothing more. Astrologers hadn't given them enough consideration and jumped on a bandwagon. <<<
Zart, I'm not really into the Occult although I respect that there is a lot in the Hidden Archives that would be worth knowing.
On naming of the planets, I believe the International Astronomical Union decides these days on all naming.
Apparently a nine-year-old girl suggested Pluto. Other suggestions were Minerva and Atlas (I would have quite liked Minerva though - the Roman goddess of martial arts - she could beat me to a pulp if I said anything against Hillary)
Uranus was originally called Herschel, after it's discoverer, although the sycophant wanted to name it after George III ...
Neptune was named by the British Astronomical Society.
I find it quite enthralling that astronomers are in fact doing the bidding of the gods by giving the planets their correct names.

zart, i was wondering if you were consistent with this idea or not.. it appears you are.. interesting theories you are holding on the arrival of the planets names, their meaning and the interpretations of leading astrologers.. i think it is good to keep an open mind... an empty mind is good too for allowing new ideas to come in.. while none of us may experience a pluto or neptune return, we do experiencethese planets via transit and etc in our lives.. i think most folks who spend a lot of time with astrology develop ideas around the planets by watching them in action, directly or through people they are close to. i know that is how i have arrived at most of my ideas.. surely you must have some thoughts on these outer planets based on first hand experience?
i sense a movement on your part to align yourself with eastern, or what is presently called 'vedic' astrology... don't the more modern vedic astrologers adopt the outer planets? i hope they don't have to wait a few hundred years before they enter the lexicon..

s. I was originally schooled in Western Sidereal. I've looked into Vedic but I don't go for hoodoo mystical and when I am able to discuss Astrology with Vedics that don't go glassy eyed on me... I do.
I have said before I see Astrology as a method of observing the natural universe and its interrelatedness. Interesting that the outer planets were discovered and identified when our species had evolved enough to see them and as a species we had to change the paradigm of how we saw our place in the universe when we using the inner planets to mark time in our lives. The outer planets are very different. Yet we insist on sticking what we have discovered in to the same old shoe.
I don't think it an act of serendipity that those that named the planets named them appropriately for the latter-day Astrologers to interpret. Puh-leeze. I don't think it matter what you call them... and that is part of the problem... people are too stuck on the Greco-Roman archetype ... as our discussions about Saturn the deity and how that translates into the effects of Saturn the planet upon the individual.

This is an interesting discussion. Zart, I've literally talked to Vedic astrologers who believe that the planetary gods arrive for the session and participate. These gods are summoned at the beginning of the session by chanting. That might be symbolic to some, but quite literal to others.
One thing I've noticed is that as our use of astrology evolves, so does our idea of the "gods" Pluto goes from the one who takes us away to the underworld, to the notion that we willingly go to the depths for understanding to a notion that it is a comination of both. What it will be in 5 years is yet to be seen.
Some of the books on the outer planets are almost incomprehensible. They are everything and nothing. That may represent the current state of understanding.
There is another trend that at least in my corner of the galaxy seems to be appearing. Young people studying astrology but who don't have books. They only use what's available online or in a soundbite. For some reason that is truly unsettling. But that may be Saturn speaking through me rather than some thing assoctiated with their generation but unknown to my consciousness
sorry to ramble

Cynthia I have no problem with people associating spirituality with Astrology. There is the part of eastern philosophy that leaked into western thought... where two or three are gathered... I think it applies in Astrological counseling. I do have a problem with cognitive dissonance... where it looks feels smells and tastes like one thing and an Astrologer or anyone tells you its another. Astrology isn't the only place this happens. There is a difference from being in the "zone" and being delusional.
Young people studying astrology but who don't have books. They only use what's available online or in a sound-bite. For some reason that is truly unsettling. But that may be Saturn speaking through me rather than some thing associated with their generation but unknown to my consciousness I think that happened in the 60's too with coffee table books and that is also the time when the set beliefs about the outer planets came into the norm. The information was/is just assumed valid... and because it is repeated a lot is considered true. People repeat it but they don't examine it.
For example I was originally taught that when possible, you were supposed to check what you see in a chart against the real world events.
I was also taught that the Sun and Moon held equal value in a person's chart.
I think we are at a great time where we can discuss these things with a large crowd from different Astrology persuasions.
BTW nice to see your post. I always enjoy your perspective... even if we don't always agree... I respect your professionalism.

Look at Pluto through Scorpio and Sagittarius before now. Pluto was opposed Saturn at its inception into Scorpio. There was the AIDS epidemic. With Saj, there was bad religion -- "savage puritanism" as Martin Seymour-Smith might say.
Pluto by its turbulence energizes the issues but it rakes up some muck as well. There is crisis -- deadly crisis.
In matters of business, establishment, and the trappings of prestige we will see much muck raked up when Pluto crosses Capricorn. Sad abuses of power/rank.

Well, maybe it's because it's the anniversary of my husband's death that I've been thinking so much about Pluto, but I have to put in a cent or two here.
Cynthia, why are you troubled about people learning astrology on the internet? Isn't this the internet and aren't each of us in our humble and not so humble ways trying to express what we have learned and experienced and to learn more?
When I was a very little kid at an age where I could read fairly well, maybe 7 or 8, I used to go to the corner candy store and read those little books they used to (still do, maybe) have on the Sun signs. When the Linda Goodman book came out, I was thrilled - I was unaware of where or how to get books on astrology. I had the good fortune to meet my mentor when I was working at a hospital and she was a patient. That was in 1971. I learned to create a chart (by hand) and "read" it using books she recommended and found a book store that actually sold such things.
I wish I'd had the internet then. There are a lot of good astrologers on line and, I think for the most part, those who post here are top-notch.
As far as the outer planets. My sense is that the namers of the planets were pretty much on the money. While I don't do as many charts as some, I do quite a few - especially since coming here. I also have my lurker buddy who loves researching aspects and collects charts and fills me in on who has what aspect and how that might relate to someone being discussed here.
We are fortunate to have computers that can now go back and place the outer planets in the charts of those long dead - particularly looking at events as relate to the slower moving bodies. The examples here recently about Pluto in Capricorn is revisiting its place when the American and French Revolutions occurred.
While I do believe that most people operate from their personal planets and to a lesser extent to Saturn and Jupiter - some may not resonate to the outer bodies at all. Some may resonate more because of how their personal planets are aspected by the outer planets.
I have no problem assigning rulerships over signs to the outer planets or at least considering them. While I have a strong Saturn in my chart as its ruler, I'm very Neptunian (at least I feel like I am - maybe it's an illusion :) and I'm deluding myself).
I believe that the more one taps into spirituality, the more that the outer planets play a role.
There was some discussion on the Bush thread about asteroids and their relevance and how much importance should be given. I'd say for Raymond, who introduced the subject, they are very important. For Wayne, maybe not so much.
If we are energy and energy is vibration - then it stands to reason that anything that comes close to the vibration will have some effect. Isn't this what the aspects are all about? How one planet resonates to another. So, even small blips are likely to make a difference.
With generations of people sharing the same Pluto, wouldn't it stand to reason that the Pluto vibration would become that much stronger and thereby effect those people in a personal way? Wouldn't that energy also effect someone with an aspect to Pluto feel it as well by transit? I never studied physics, but I think that's what I'm describing.
I doubt the Ptolemy got it all right either, but those astrologers attempting to make sense of the outer planets and how they relate to everyday life should be commended for their efforts - even if they prove to be wrong. If you don't write something because you can't prove it 100%, then do you just not write?
I've been criticized here for postulating a new idea or concept here from time to time because it didn't come from someone else's book. Heck, I may have been an astrologer on Atlantis and I'm now channeling information from that time and trying to express it. Hey, why not - that's one explanation of my nodes square Mercury and since the GC is sitting on my SN and it's being transitted by Pluto, I may be expounding ancient wisdom. I'm saying this partly in jest, but why couldn't it be true?
We simply don't know enough, but to limit our knowledge at Saturn because all the data isn't in, to me, is not something I care to do. If I'm completely off about what is being discussed here, please let me know. It's been a rough week.

cynthia, nice to see you here. i always enjoy reading your astro comments.
zart, cognitive dissonance can happen anywhere. astrologers aren't any different. people do get things right and wrong from time to time. assumptions based on some astro feature of a chart having to be a certain way, when i fact it doesn't have to be, is a good example... hillarys sexuality is a recent example that some on the h thread have been discussing at present..
what i find interesting is how much an astrolgers interpretation says something about the astrologer as much as it does about the person who is having the chart described-discussed.
as for the outer planets and their impact on our lives, i like the idea that those who resonate to a different vibration more spiritual in nature are more likely to experience the outer planets in a more conscious manner.. i suppose this is what penelope is basically saying with which i agree with her on this.

S: Basically, yes, that's what I was saying. Thoreau comes to mind - marching to the tune of a different drummer. Another reason why I believe in reincarnation.
Taking the spiritual element into consideration would also address the idea of how people having similar charts can be so different from one another.
A few weeks back I posted some information about Tom Robbins whose birth information was quite similar to Hillary's. His path is natural health and nutrition. Still health care, one might say, but addressing it in a totally different way.

I guess Ineed to clarify what I meant to say.
I find astrology very useful for the spiritual journey. In fact, that may be one of its richest aspects. I don't think the planetary gods show up whenever I work with a client, but do ask that my heart connect with his or hers and that I speak with the client from that level.
I believe that in a session, we can't really reveal anything that the native, on some deep level, doesn't already know. That astrologers do help to uncover that inner something...at least that is my intent. I'm not sure what else I believe or don't believe at this point, so I've stayed away.
Regarding young people and sound bites of astrology on the net. I do not mean the online courses. But there is some value in sitting with an ephemeris and watching the movement of the planets. And there is some value in investing the time to read a text rather than just the pieces you can download this minute. They are (admittedly not everyone) taken aback by what it takes to learn astrology and want it in quick notes.

Hi Cynthia, I agree about not telling anyone anything they don't already know. Sometimes I thing that people come wanting us to tell them something else, hoping against hope that what they know in their hearts is wrong. Same with going to a psychologist.
I personally chant that my Buddha nature connect with the client's Buddha nature before a reading.
I agree about sound bites, however, it may create an interest where there was none and the reading or classes will happen. If someone doesn't resonate to astrology on a more complete level - that's a good thing = fewer bad astrologers. At least there is more information out there. Part of what I was trying to say was, when I was searching,there wasn't much to find.
Also, my lurker friend (LF from now on) emailed me some interesting statistics about Mercury/Neptune that I'll convey later. Big work day today, so don't have time now.

knowing something and being in denial are connected i suppose.. sometimes someone can say something to tip the scale so to speak.. i think one aspect where astrology differs from other disciplines is in timing and offering some ideas in that area..
usually i will say something half controversial in an attempt to hear others views, lol...

Mars at 3' leo. A conjunction between Sun and Uranus. Strong Pluto position. This is a man who expects disruptions in his career, explosive events(9/11)things turning around asa result in his career. Jupiter at 20' Leo indicates life has been overly fair to him as a result. i.e. he can take advantage of these probelms to further his personal career as he has done.

a man who has faced disruptions in his life and career(9/11) and one who takes advantage of that experience to further hisn political ambitions are shown in his chart

And 9-11 fit his natural instincts to a tee as far as where he really wanted to be, i.e., right in the middle of the crisis, boldly taking charge and setting up lines of communication to bring back stability as soon as possible. (Asc. ruler Merc in Taurus in the 8th house with Aries on the cusp).

Oops! Typo. Not Carik but Carol.

Its perhaps interesting that both Guliani and Hillary have such a close conjunction between Mars/Pluto in Leo, in this we see the unfettered quest for political prominence no matter what the consequences or the hurdles...a man who has side-stepped two failed marriages, the first to a cousin, the second to a woman he openly cheated on while still in political office..a man who has little if any relationship with his children who have vowed not to campaign for him..someone who has survived cancer and what under other circumstances would have been a failed mayorship but because of doing the appropriate thing during a disaster became a british knight and time's man of the year...and then a woman whose constantly philandering husband...recklessly aggrandizing brothers...own shady legal practices and countless scandals involving former friends and enemies alike..to receive thundering applause on the national stage and seek the highest office of the land..
It says something of this powerful conjunction and the fact that it appears in prideful, showy, boastful and self-serving leo for us to see what the conjunction is capable of...here we see the dark side of leo and the ruthlessness of pluto..
It is perhaps fitting that this election takes place while Pluto edges into Capricorn, a sign that like Leo obsesses with power..and while Leo seeks to rule for self-gain and ego..Capricorn seeks the same thing for the sake of power for power's own sake..an interesting turn of events if these two are pitted against each other

I don't know about Rudy except that he did some good work as a U.S. Attorney - don't like him much myself, but with Hillary you mentioned a lot of stuff about other people's misdeeds, but other than some allusions to shady legal dealings, have really nothing negative to say about her personally. What about her work with the Children's Defense League and other good works that she's performed over the years.
Seems you look at the negatives in these people more than the good they've done. People get ahead by being nefariuos, that's true, but it isn't always the case.
While I don't agree with Wayne necessarily about Mars in Leo being noble, this combination does give one drive and ambition, for sure. Power is often sought to do good. If you don't have any power, whatever noble or positive ambitions can come to nothing.

i think the astro point that gets missed in rudy verses hillarys chart is the prominence of saturn in both charts.. in rudy it is close to the midheaven and in hillary it is in her solar 10th. both have a need to serve from a position of authority..
i think hillary has the stronger chart in some ways due the greater degree of fixity in her chart and that this same mars/pluto conj is aligned with saturn as well in her chart.. saturn is going to give the staying power and i think the more desperate a person is, the more likely they are to hang in for the long haul... i think hillary has this more then rudy, but i could be wrong. rudy has a few earth planets, whereas hillary doesn't.. both of them have a strong saturn, but rudys is under stress from pluto whereas hillarys is under stress from neptune.. i am not sure which is more challenging.. at the time of the election mars is at 20 scorpio making a square to neptune, so she will have a mars at top of a moving t square involving her chart with transits.. this suggests added drive.. i see rudy has the same with the mars/neptune transit, but it is to jupiter in leo, as opposed to saturn in leo.. i think saturns in leo tend to view jupiters in leo as fluff.. it is a very different expression of the leo energy with saturn verses jupiter..
i agree with those who think the slime machines of both parties will go into action, but i have to hand it to the repubs who perhaps due there natal moon in scorp, know how to do the slime thing a lot better then the democrats have ever shown any aptitude for. whoever wins is going to inherit hell either way, as that is what bush and company have left them to work with..

Actually as far as their personal lives... trials and tribulations... both seem pretty typical of their generation... (tropical Pluto /Leo ) with a little more flash because of their social status. The simple truth is Hillary has made far greater strides and held higher office than Rudy... and she is further inside the beltway than he.

Hillary has had her share of "misdeeds", whitewater and the like...her misdeeds are not as newsworthy as her husbands, because they are largely of a financial nature...sex sells, people get lost in the details of financial complexities, but if you read up on her background, theres plenty of dirt...i personally like her, but shes far from "clean"...the point is that she is willing to brush aside everything for this pursuit of power...which i attribute largely, although not completely to the conjunction in pluto...it can be summed up as ruthlessly aggressive and ambitious..
I find pluto in Leo as a generational impact to be searching for power and ego..a great deal of pride is involved..i am of a different generation with pluto in libra, so i can only speak for observation..i do however note a very large difference in the personalities between pluto in leo which is my parents and pluto in scorpio which is my younger siblings...the signs in between and even before, such as Cancer, Virgo and Libra seem to be more about relationships and personal issues, with leo and scorpio to be more about ego and power...merely an observation...i think as pluto goes into capricorn, we will see quite a bit of pluto in leo surge for power, because both signs are compatible with it...pluto in scorpio is very powerful, i can only wonder what that generation will be up to when its time comes

M - Weren't most of those financial issues brought up during Whitewater? The only thing (hah!) that came out of the whole investigation was the Lewinsky affair - a big deal, but no $$$. Ken Starr and a bunch of other went over her financial stuff and came up with bupkus. If Starr couldn't find anything, I can't imagine what could be unearthed at this late date. For one thing, the records, if there are/were any have likely gone the way of the Enron stuff.
I also have to say - you'd think they would have been richer if she was up to as much financial stuff as has been speculated. They were about the "poorest" couple to enter the White House in a very long time. They had/have wealthy friend, but he was only making $6000 a year as governor of Arkansas. In her bio by Joyce Milton, it's commented that Hillary knew that she would have to be the breadwinner in the family, so she went to work at the Rose Law Firm. Wasn't she also voted one of the top 50 or 100 lawyers in the US. Now I'm not aware of who considers what in these things, but I'd imagine someone would be investigated to some extent, wouldn't they?
It was only through the advances for writing their books that they were able to pay the legal bills that arose from Whitewater, etc. I imagine he makes his money now from speaking engagements and they both have their books. I don't know what a Senator makes - $100,000 a year. My girlfriend who's a veep at a music company makes almost 3x that.

I think the point is whether or not Hillary actually committed the problems is irrelevant, its a case of personal problems, whether they are related to siblings, spouses or others...most people's problems have a way of hampering their political careers...what the conjunction does is give you the ability to keep focused and carry on...its ruthless ambition..i cant speak for everyone but i will add that most people given hillary or guliani's issues would have never sought this position...especially nowadays where nothing is private..it takes tremendous drive to go the distance

I think it is very different for Hillary... she has accomplished things methodically, sytematically and deliberately... one foot in front of the other.
Rudy with that Moon Jupiter thing going on... bites off big chunks at a time... often more than he can chew...

Well, I made a post here and thought it should go on Hillary's thread as well. When I did copy/paste, I lost it here, but it did go on the Hillary thread, so I guess that's a success, of sorts for me.
I talked about mission, especially after 9/11 for both of them. There is certainly the power angle to consider, but when one feels a mission, it becomes bigger than the person.
Anyway, there is a longer post on the HC page.

I'm not sure whether this is the case or not, but some people feel they have a mission in life. As I said, I don't know much about Giuliani's early life. However, his career does seem to lend itself to a crusader type idealism. Perhaps the events at 9/11 brought that even more home to him than when he was in the US Atty's office or as Mayor of New York. With Hillary, I think her father (and to some extent possibly her mother) impressed upon her the need to "do" something valuable with her life. Once again 9/11 may have been the driving force for her to pursue the presidency. From all appearances, she was comfortable in the Senate - but that's just my take.
And, yes, you are right, it's likely the Mars/Pluto - my friend from high school has it and rose to a very high position where she works - was the first woman to do so - and has maintained her status even though she's getting older.
Maybe I'm finally getting the hang of this computer stuff - here's the original post. Not earth shattering, but relevant, I think.
As far as Hillary's life having problem people in it - the strong always attract the weak or needy. If anything, it has given her stature and the ability to roll with the punches. Perfect training for the job she is going after.
I know that this is on the wrong thread and will see if I can figure out how to get it on her thread, but this is another reason I feel her to be Virgo rising. The 6th house nature of the sign is service and that seems to be what her life path has been - one of service.

Well I've been to Arkansas and my impression was that it is the only State where there is a Full Moon every night. People in Arkansas are completely nuts in my opinion. There just something wrong with the magnetism in that place.
That said, is Hillary dirty? Of course she is. She made $100,000 in a cattle deal in a year on a $10,000 investment. I know a couple of cattle-men in Spokane Washington who've bought and sold cattle all their lives and to a man they told me it is simply not possible. But then, Hillary and Bill are probably no more corrupt than the rest of them.
My God, what about G W Bush/Cheney and the enormous corruption that is going on in Iraq, hundreds of billions of tax-payer's dollars squandered for nothing? The latest Blackwater scandal? The emergency spending supplements nearly five years later. Just today that other idiot, Condi Rice, so outrageously inept it has to be in the Guinness Book of World Records, was forced to state that the $750,000,000 US embassy is so badly constructed that it may have to be torn down!
The Bush presidency seems never-ending with it's continual screw-ups and a general overwhelming incompetence that is almost impossible to believe. God alone knows the real cost that Bush has inflicted on this nation.
We are now 10 Trillion in debt, thanks to Bush, that's $10,000,000,000,000 in debt, more than half of which has been accumulated by G W Bush.
I cannot put into words how much I loathe G W Bush and his continual stupidity. So give me Hillary with warts and all over that brainless dolt Bush any day.

This chart contains the time of birth, unlike Hilary Clinton,and it can help us determine whether he will become the next President. I dont know when the US Election is held, but at present, The Moon is now passing through the 3st house of the natal horoscope, (Sagittarius)and this emphasises the personal characteristics of the individual, because of the close mathematical and angular proximity with the natal Ascendant. This is what we are seeing at present, with election rallies, publicity,etc.This phase will come to an end in 2 years after which his personal life will be redetermined, because of the strategic position of Mars. One of the planets in his chart shows dreams coming true and this planet points to the possibility of him becoming a Republican winner, but not necessarily the President. His career is described as a speaker, writer, politician, or a leader. Other planets shows a beginning (or an end) in his career over the next couple of years. Life will be extermely lucky/unlucky for him, why both? His gains will be paid with disasters on the other side(9/11 and hero), expect a repetition again. That contradiction along with his career moving away after 5 years, puts him on a path of uncertainty with his future career, I am therfore likley to think he may not become the next President.

transits for nov 4 2008 are
venus 20 sag top of t square, with saturn/uranus opp at 19 virgo/pisces. mars/neptune square at 21 scorpio/aquarius.
the first pic is the most important as it includes the bowl charts outer planets - saturn/uranus, but the 2nd pic does tie in with mars as favourable outlet to the saturn/uranus.
the connection to rudys chart is through the jupiter at 20 leo, which ties to pic 1 via a trine to venus and to pic 2 via a square/opposition to mars/neptune..
the other part of the transit chart that is of primary importance to his chart is pluto at 29 sag opp his midheaven.. t pluto also makes a 150 to his natal venus.. all in all the pic from the transits doesn't suggest to me presidential winner..
the sec prog chart for election day has sp moon at 24 sag, directly engaging nothing...sp ascendant at 20 scorpio (where the natal jupiter and t mars/neptune config is), and sp midheaven 1 virgo 17 right where the sp jupiter is at 1 virgo 16.. this is assuming the 230 pm time is not a fudge, which i think it is... in itself the sp m/jup is favourable. the sp asc to natal jupiter is also favourable... nothing heavy to jupiter though and for a winning chart i believe it necessary to see some strong saturn - leader - tie ins. i don't see it in the transits, or sec prog chart to giulianis chart.
his solar arc directions for the election date are non suggestive to me as well..
an interesting characteristic to the sec prog chart is the sec prog sun/pluto conj at 8 leo, which will be tied with the sec prog moon about 1 month prior to the election at 23 sag - making a 135 to this combo... i would look for a possibility of scandal 1 month prior to election night to reflect this progressed pattern in his sec prog chart.. my 2c-

Wayne "Well I've been to Arkansas and my impression was that it is the only State where there is a Full Moon every night. People in Arkansas are completely nuts in my opinion. There just something wrong with the magnetism in that place."
LOL! Most of the growing booming areas are now about 65% immigrants from other states. I live about 25 mi from the richest family in America, in the NW corner and 25% of our population is Hispanic. Bush is choosin the NW corner for his big PRIVATE address to corporate leaders tomorrow. You cannot even find out where and when he will appear. He won't do a show without a totally supportive audience. Walmart audience will eat it up. This was one of his largest fund-raising areas in 04. Tells you how nutso some of the rich locals are.
Funny that you brought it up, the magnetism bit. There's an area in NW corner called Magnetic Mountain. It became such a popular site for UFO sightings in the 70s & 80s that there is now an annual convention of UFO watchers who come from all 50 states and few foreign nations. Very close by is a huge statue of Christ. It's the ugliest sight in the state. Commissioned by ultra right winger Gerald K. Smith and poured with Concrete, it's about 65 ft high. At a distance it resembles a chalk white bomber plane doing a vertical takeoff. Here is link to photo. http://www.flickr.com/photos/fallsroad/25991398/
I must admit there are many wackos here. Vance Randolph was my favorite of all times. Sometime read his once popular book, "Pissing in the Snow", a collection of Ozark folk tales. I met him when I came here in the early 70s. He was a charming old Pisces. Check him out on Wiki.

Lwood I haven't heard of Randolf but will check him out.
I've been to about half the States in America and Arkansas was the only one where I felt totally confused, strange and bewildered. These are not my normal psychological states by the way (even though some posters on this board may disagree).
It reminds me of the old joke about an Arkansas radio station that had a contest - "First prize one week all expenses paid in Little Rock, second prize two weeks..."
I've been to Arkansas a few times and everyone I met either knew Clinton or was his best friend or he trod on their foot at some restaurant ... I live in Bellevue Washington, one mile from Bill Gates (I measured it on a map - we're very close you know) and have the same situation with Bill. Everyone I know has met him or is his best friend or he trod on their foot ... I've never even seen him.

Clinton never failed to reach out to his constituents, male and female. He thoroughly enjoys it, the socializing, talking about their issues no matter how trivial. I knew him by default. We attended the same high school and lived about 5-6 blocks from each other, occasionally played touch football on Sun afternoons in the undeveloped cemetery lot close to our homes. I worked for his uncle (a Kingmaker in local poltics) for a year when I was 19 and he came by to visit his uncle once a week at the car dealership. We chatted then. I saw him again at the UoA when he was about to take his Oxford scholarship and I was about to flee to Canada (draft). He talked me out of it. He drew a large draft number that year and canceled his ROTC contract went to England to study at Oxford. That was our last personal meeting, summer of 69 I think. He was always direct with his friends, quick to rebutt a position he didn't approve. I've never seen a person learn as fast as Clinton. Incredible. He would postpone studying for exams then scan over the material and bingo, max the exam. A few of his law school students told me he was an excellent teacher. I saw him a few times during his professor tenure but only in social settings, never a personal exchange. Then he went into politics and I went into a long personal journey. My brother and Clinton have stayed in touch over the years. They played in a dance band together when they were teenagers. Both are Leos and good musicians, born the same year.
I heard a lot of stories about Bill and girls which were at best second hand info so never put much value in that. Some of it could have been true. But with his Moon sqr Sun some of it is BS.

Thanks for the personal take, L. Frankly, Clinton and I are the same age and he didn't have the looks as a kid that most girls I went to school with were interested in. Personality is one thing, but I was always surprised to hear that he was a hit with the girls in high school. Band guys didn't rate - it was the athletes.
Your family history is fascinating. I'm sorry about your dad - that must have been a horrible blow to your family, especially in terms of wanting to help someone out who was in trouble.

You have to admit that Clinton is an amazing politician. I mean he's a wonderful liar.
I remember when he gave us that nonsense about smoking dope at Oxford but not inhaling. I expect he was the biggest dealer on campus.
I lived in London in the late 60's (I think but I lost three years somewhere) and there was a lot of really good Afghan Gold (you know the crumbly stuff like sand) and especially the little hard sticks from India. The good stuff wasn't cheap and me mum always wanted to know why I needed extra money ...
Anyway, if Bill didn't inhale I can promise you everyone would have beaten him senseless for wasting a good smoke.
I just wonder which other pols running for pres didn't smoke dope or inhale during the 60's, when we all know they all did because we all did too ...

FYI - Bill Clinton does have his own thread. It's a little hard to get to - need to go through Hillary's, but there's a lot of chart information there if anyone is interested. Or not.

>>Personality is one thing, but I was always surprised to hear that he was a hit with the girls in high school. Band guys didn't rate - it was the athletes.<<
Well that wasn't true for B.C. He was a hustler with the girls. As class president and then student body president many girls admired him. He dated some very good looking girls back then. He drove his mother's new Buick convertible on weekends. That helped some. Most of the girls he dated were brainy, National Honor Society types, but not prudes.

wayne penner 10/17/2007 You have to admit that Clinton is an amazing politician. I mean he's a wonderful liar.<< Here's a good one from the twisted political tongue of Rudy:
RUDY, today: Speaking before the Republican Jewish Coalition this morning, Rudy Giuliani, R-NY, wasted no time in fighting back criticism from his GOP rivals.
"Am I real Republican?" Giuliani asked the crowd while not naming his critics by name. "I gave my blood for the Republican Party in New York."
"In 1996, Giuliani told a national television audience that he really wasn't a Republican mayor. "Well, I'm a Republican mayor, but I'm really not," Giuliani said. "I'm the mayor of New York City. I ran as a Republican, I ran as a Liberal -- which really confuses all kinds of people -- and I ran as an Independent... So I'm not the most partisan of Republicans."

bill clinton thread
http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/Feedback.asp?ChartID=863

Zayin, if you read this and aren't too busy doing cloak and dagger can you get the time for Mark Spitzer, Gov. of NY?
wiki gives June 10, 1959, in the Bronx.
He's another Gemini, with Mars in Leo and Ven, Moon.
"Spitzer attended Princeton University, where he was elected chairman of the undergraduate student government, graduating in 1981. He scored a perfect score on the LSAT,[2] and went on to Harvard Law School, where he met and married Silda Wall. Spitzer was an editor of the Harvard Law Review." wiki
Spitzer was a very reform minded Attorney General. He cleaned up and prosecuted the re-insurance scams going on in NY companies.
I think he is a rising star in Demo party-ready to pounce after Hillary capitulates too much in 09-'12.

Oops. It's Elliot Spitzer, guv of NY. You wonks on here likely realized my mistake. same data. .

Spitzer has become a pariah. He has no chance whatsoever on the national scene with some of his almost lunatic policies, even for New York, which is a city of lunatics and why I like it so much.
Spitzer is a disgrace, spending wildly, arrogant beyond belief (as badly afflicted Leo planets always are), a totally out-of-control nut who presently has his hands on the levers of power, but he will meet his political end as he is totally out of sync with what the people think.
The man is a middle-manager at best, one who must be constantly supervised. He is out of position and out of his depth.

L.WOOD I will see what I can do.Cloak and Dagger.MMMM.I am just a Consultant.

Spitzer was a quite zealous attorney general here in NY and a star on the rise, basically by relentlessly going after others...in the same thread as Rudolph Guliani before him..they are very much alike...children of immigrants...attorney generals who built their reputation by attacking others and making headlines...very much in the Leo mold..it worked in the short term...but now karma seems to be swinging back...hes had it pretty tough in albany these last few months...i used to be the governor of NY was automatically presidential timber...no longer..not since the days of Governor Dewey got nailed by Truman in 1948...

>>built their reputation by attacking others and making headlines<<
What else is an AG to do? Attend ceremonies and openings? Sponsor Little League? Their job is to investigate and prosecute, handle consumer complaints. They prosecute crimes for the state. In my state we have a near do-nothing AG while unscrupulous insurance companies are sending around agents dressed as nurses and medical techs to sign up the elderly for dubious Medicare supplemental policies trying to convince them that their policies are essential to keep their Medicare from being canceled. I had the opportunity in Aug to confront our AG and asked why he wasn't going after the companies rather than pulling the agent's license. he stumbled around the question and remarked that it was the Insurance Comish 's job. I reminded him our Insurance Comish cannot prosecute, only the AG. The AG in any state must be the prosecutor for all the various state agencies and departments.

There is a way to do it....
An Ag is supposed to go after criminals, but to build your reputation on the bones of others is a different story altogether, his reputation is that he was almost violent and relentless in the prosecution of people, and not just violent criminals, in other words, he would attack white collar criminals and make large cases based on circumstantial evidence for the glorification of his career and political prominence, such goes beyond the concept of justice and punishment..its one thing to prosecute for wrong doing, its another to be relentless to the point of aggrandizing charges and getting maximum sentences for weak crimes at best for your own career boost

What I recall was Spitzer fearlessly taking on corporate corruption. One of his major efforts as AG was going after insurance companies for contingent commissions, sometimes called co-insurance, which was way of avoiding competitive bidding and practicing unethical favoritism. I worked for one of the companies involved. They had also been hauled before the NY Insurance Comish a few times for numerous violations. His efforts to clean up insurance malpractice spread to other states. I'm sure he made some mistakes as any prosecutor will over the years.
One of his best actions was ending the Gambino crime family's control of garment and trucking industry. See wiki.

Spitzer is far from squeaky clean, if you read the wiki article is talks about his nixonian politics when it comes to state senate leader Joseph Bruno, he is considerably power hungry and has been for quite some time..perhaps its my south node talking but i think power for the goal of humanitarian interests is noble, but for self aggranidization and personal gain are reprehensible, hence my dislike of the leoine politicians, who wear it more bluntly than most...the crop of many recent politicians, from both Clintons, Gore, Bush Jr, Guliani and Spitzer shows a marked leo influence as opposed to the Aquarian spirit...had Ayn Rand been alive (another leo rising) im sure she would disagree with me, but this blatant and all too conquest of power to me is vile...Spitzer is another governor Dewey, a man whose ambitious political sights had him go after the mob, not because his apprehension to crime, but as a political platform, these politicians are merely ego polishing....look at that leo stellium afflicted by Neptune...its a clear marker of delusions (Neptune) of grandeur (Leo)..he seems fairly inteligent but if you think hes a do gooder, i cant agree

"M" I won't pursue Spitzer further and thank you for your insights. I imagine you have kept abreast of Spitzer's actions more keenly than I as he's in your hometown. But, you mentioned Nept sqr his Leo placements as pushing him towards personal aggrandizement then what about his Saturn quincunx to them and squaring his nodes? At some point Saturn applies the brakes.

M, this is a little off the subject, but do you have Ayn Rand's TOB? And if so, your source? Thanks.

I have seen the time posted a few times Carol, astrotheme puts here time at 3:30 pm on 2 February 1905 in Saint Petersburg and zodiacal.com puts it at that time as well...i suspect they are correct, it would put Sun in Aquarius ruling the chart, shes about as aquarian as it gets, esp with the Sun/Moon in Saturn's dominion and Saturn in Aquarius...fountainhead is probably the greatest book i have ever read...i recommend it
Oh, by all means post about Spitzer, LWood, hes quite bright intellectually, but i wouldnt trust his as far as i can throw him, and to be honest i cant throw very far :) Spitzer is stopped but not by himself, i think when it comes to saturn, we see a bit of karma chasing him..he grew up privileged and excelled in school and became successful in law very quickly, but he would throw anyone under the bus to get where he wanted to be...but the governorship attracts alot of attention and everyone has to pay the piper, esp in this state and hes going to pay it...were a democratic state so he can stay comfortable politically, but if his excesses are too much (Neptune squares) its going to get him..I think saturn every so often will scare him to be humble, which he is not by nature, the quincux makes him uncomfortable from time to time but is not as savage as the square, perhaps causing him to be his own worst enemy

her books have some merit, but there is something radically wacko with the thought process in them as well.. i read fountainhead and atlas shrugged many years ago.. i will look at her chart.. her name came up in one of justin raimondos articles recently..50th anniversery of atlas shrugged. Ayn Despite the Randians http://www.takimag.com/site/article/ayn_vs_the_randians/

Thanks for the info and the tip on astrotheme, M. I can't wait to check out who else they might have. And speaking of Ayn Rand's "Fountainhead," I love the movie and just watched it again on A&E a couple of days ago. It was even more interesting having just recently read Patricia Neal's book describing the hot scandalous affair she and Gary Cooper were having off screen (as well as on) while they were making that movie.
Back back to Spitzer: It sounds like Lou Dobbs and a bunch of others are about ready to ask for his impeachment for his fervent desire and effort to give illegal aliens drivers' licenses with no social security number requirement, and thereby set up easy voter fraud and a bunch of other horrors. What can he be thinking, praytell???

Correction: Turner Classic Movies, not A&E.

I remember reading Atlas Shrugged in high school - my goodness, but have no idea anymore what the book was about - except individualism (is that right?). Have no idea about the story line anymore - just know I was enthralled with her writing and concepts. Who is John Galt? was a t-shirt slogan.
Read Fountainhead as well. All I can remember of that is it was about architects and that while reading it, the pictures in my head were all in grim shades of gray.
Was she pessimistic? That's the vibe I remember.
As for Pat Neal and Gary Cooper - it was one of those hushed up 1950s-early 1960s scandals since he was a long-timed married, family popular actor (wife's name was Rocky, as I recall).

Your welcome Carol, a caveat about Astrotheme in that im not sure what their sources are and sometimes i have conflicting information with theirs, but otherwise its a great place to find information about many celebrities...
The fountainhead as a book is very different than the movie, the movie is good in its own right, but the book has an aquarian brilliance to it that the movie cannot convey...its long but to get through it is very satisfying, she was brilliant...very complex also..Atlas Shrugged is harder to get through and the characters arent as dynamic, its brilliant but somewhere after the middle it gets far too philisophical and fantastical for me, the architectural metaphor of the fountainhead fits in very well with Rand's chart, Uranus, Moon/Mercury in Capricorn, Sun and Saturn in Aquarius fits a very disciplined structure that Rand seeks to convey..Her chart spells very easily the difference between Uranian, which she is not and Aquarian, which she is..Uranus is bizarre and almost without reason, almost unapologetically so..Aquarian operates with rules and structure just like Saturn ruled Capricorn, it is merely less greedy and more democratic ...
Gary Cooper himself has a fascinating chart with Algol rising and a very close conjunction on Venus and the Sun in Taurus...as a humorous side note, he died at approx high noon :)
Lou Dobbs is a populist, slightly more right of center...to me he looks like a serious porky pig...i cant get a time on him but my guess is Taurus is rising and he resembles president Herbert Hoover who also was a Taurus rising...
Spitzer is full of dirty tricks but i doubt he would need illegal immigrants to get elected, NY is a Democratic sate, state and federally...we only switch to a Republican if a Democrat screws up...case in point Guliani after the Dinkins disaster...Pataki after we had enough of the Cuomo years...to me spitzer looks like scorpio is rising but thats just because of his ferocious looking eyes, they look like they are on fire...not an easy opponent in court at all im sure

M, ah...let's start with Gary Cooper, pure sensuality personified. Not for nothing was about every woman he ever worked with immediately attracted to him (including 25-year-younger Pat Neal) and ended up acting on it to the max. And I think this totally natural, ideal, physical appeal is so aptly seen in that Venus/Sun Conj. in Taurus you mentioned, which I also believe is probably correctly placed in the idyllic 12th house.
And I know what you mean about Rand's stuff getting too "philosophical and fantastical," at least for a fiction format. That's why I could never get through her novels but was just totally bowled over by her in an interview in Playboy Magazine she gave many many years ago. That in itself was one of the most Uranian experiences I've ever had (talk about "mind blowing"!!). And then years later she was on Donahue as the main guest and hadn't changed her radically daring position or ideas one bit, or the courage to express them without mincing a word.
And Penn, I too am actually a little vague on her stuff, but yes I think her main thing was individualism but also promoting the virtue of selfishness. Seems like it was sort of like Oscar Wilde's take on it, who said "the trouble with being selfless is it's so unfair to the people you're doing it for."
Regarding Spitzer's wanting to give easy-access drivers' licenses to illegal aliens, and the possible voter fraud situation that would come with it, my take on it was that the opponents were most concerned about the big upcoming presidential election. And the fact that Rudy is one of the many up in arms about it seems to confirm that, I think. BTW, I see exactly what you mean about Lou Dobbs' look, but I think he's actually trimmed down quite a bit lately.

Very true Carol,
Cooper seems to be another one of those famous people whose ruling planet is conjunct their south node, ie: Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake Vincent Van Gogh, etc...my guess is he was repeating a role...with such a Venus placement, esp in the 12th house of karma and the last life, he was probably some lothario in a past incarnation as well, its interesting to look at, esp as his sun is also in this house...

"...as a humorous side note, he [Cooper] died at approx high noon."
I just saw that (somehow missed it before), and that's perfect, lol.
Another odd little quirk (for me anyway) about the whole personna that was "Gary" Cooper is that Frank James Cooper was actually his real name until the movie studio saw fit to change it. Well, an old friend of mine whose name really WAS "Gary" said that whenever he went out specifically to meet women, he would always tell them his name was "Jim" at first because he seemed to have much better luck that way. In his view it was because "Jim" just sounded more solid and masculine and went over much better.
But with the name change completely the other way around with "Gary" Cooper, it obviously didn't make any difference in his appeal coming across loud and clear, no matter what. "A rose is a rose is a rose," etc. Anyway, just another little irony I thought was kind of interesting. Boy, I've really gotten off the astrological track here, haven't I?, lol. Oh well...

the banking system of today practices a modern form of slavery and servitude.. greenspan was one of rands students so it has worked for him.. i think the rand school of thought is that greed is good and it's okay to have slaves.. i take a different view on her and her converts.

Sandstone, I never realized there might be a connection there. That's something to think about, but offhand it seems like individualism and corporatism are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Could you elaborate a little? Thanks.

carol, read this article for some of my shared thoughts.. it is not a long article http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2179825,00.html

I see what you mean Sandstone, and I haven't done enough research to know for sure, but my guess is if Ayn Rand were alive today, she might not approve of the direction or extremes to which some have taken her teachings and philosophy. She died in 1982, and I don't think she (or anyone else) could have predicted the ungodly extent to which greed has infiltrated and essentially taken over practically every aspect of our society in the last 20 years or so.

carol -ideas in a book are one thing, but living them in real life present different obstacles usually.. i enjoyed the philosophical discourse in her books, although i didn't always agree with them, i found them rewarding to read. i think you are right about the author perhaps taking a different view on how her ideas how been taken.. i'm sure the authors of the different bibles of the world would feel the same way even more so!

I think Ayn Rand would have expected this...the theme of the Fountainhead was to do things for selfish motive...that collectivism or communism was a controlling ideology that caused some to control other, but that in individualism and self greed society would balance itself out and promote progress, that self interest and greed are motivating...which is why Rand disliked religion and communism which believed in collective thinking and brain washing so to speak...to quote the oscar winning performance of Michael Douglas in "Wall Street", "Greed for lack of a better word is good...greed will save the USA"...
Humanitarianism for noble purpose is to someone like Rand a lie...everyone has a selfish motive, whether its to make urself feel good or relax ur own conscious, everyone has a motive and thats what is needed...doing things because some tell you to is foolish, counterproductive and causes the decay of society...
Are we fat, selfish, stupid and bored? Quite so, but to her its better to work for urself than to do what someone says without question, such breeds ignorance and destruction

lol. quite the balanced society we have in the west now with individualism and self greed balancing itself out to promote (and here is where it sounds like religion) - progress.. this is like an escape back to slavery where the rich call the shots.. the problem with a 'one size fits all system of thinking' is it doesn't work. communism and capitalism thrive off one another.. ideally it would be better if we had something that was a mix of the 2, rather then an annihilation of either. that is sacrilege for a capitalist.

Such a compromise is in existence, its largely called social welfare or the welfare state, personally i think it works for somethings, not for others...but the inherent nature of man is greed, which is why communism does not work and society cannot exist without some degree of social welfare which is why pure capitalism does not work either..to be human is to be imperfect, so probably no system will ever totally work...but capitalism seems to work better..Rand fears collective thought, so anything thats individualistic she seems to promote, she puts more faith in the individual, as goes the quote "persons can be smart, but people are idiots"

Ayn Rand never considered selfishness was a bad thing, indeed in her mind it was the impetus to development in every way, and yes Gordon Gekko was a brilliant study in Rand's philosophy. At the same time, during her peak, in the 40's and 50's there were many who thought the same way, and it is probable that the "McCarthy era" came about precisely because of the intolerance that Rand obliquely supports.
I do not dislike her writing, in fact I think the Fountainhead is a great novel, but she got carried away to an extreme

m, if the inherent nature of man is greed, why would capitalism work any better? i don't think you are thinking it thru, but taking a subjective view based on popular-think americano style. think enron or long term capital management and get back to me. the federal reserve is corporate welfare for capitalists.

Oh please ... your missive makes no sense ... however, I will agree to the implicit concept that business eventually eats itself up as the big fish continue to devour the smaller fish until there is only one fish lift with nothing more to eat. So we finally get to the pure fascist state, which I would argue would be preferable, for a time, over the mess we have now.
Of course, Wayne would have to be in charge, but you would trust that there would be no complaining in Wayne's State, and of course no one left on Death Row - a few empty cells only. There would be no crime, no illegal aliens and no locks on the doors. There would be no debt, no hunger, no welfare and no Congress and no habeas corpus.
Wayne for President!

Fascism is not the inevitable result of Capitalism, more so Plutocracy, Oligarchy or Monarchy...whereas the biggest one makes the decision until someone destroys that one...we live in a capitalist society with a certain degree of compromise, otherwise the strongest person or perhaps the one with the best weapon would be the victor, which is in essence the truth as the worlds superpowers have the most weapons which exists because they have the most money...but taken to the extreme that will destroy everything...capitalism is the nature of man's purest form which is why it is the most functional

m - how about the other way around - they have the most weapons so they have the most money.. i think it is more like that with the usa at present, however the chinese are well positioned to change it all and the usa seems hell bent on making it happen too.
m- i don't agree that capitalism is mans purest form.. it is based on your earlier idea regarding mans inherent nature being one of greed. it frames everything in a materialistic context and not everyone lives according to it.. i think it is fine to hold general views on people, ideologies and systems of living, but as a general view it will not shared by all.. i don't think we're headed in that direction collectively either, that is if the wackos feeding at the trough don't bring on armageddon first..

Well maybe you guys remember a great movie called Rollerball, with James Caan. It clearly and carefully demonstrates just how fascism, or a form of fascism if you will allow, automatically develops from one-party rule. I don't normally point to movies to demonstrate a point, but if you haven't seen it rent it .. it's great.

wayne -i remember the title but never saw the movie... will see if i can find some time to check it out..

The Pluto-in-Leo generation were somewhat power hungry, but there were other intensely characteristic issues which were more dominant. Leo rules offspring and thus the baby-boomers were from this set. Leo rules entertainment and the Leo generation was fanatical (as in fans) about Elvis, the Beatles and others - the entertainment manias. They play much harder than they work. Leo rules dating and recreational romance, and that generation brought the Sexual Revolution with it. Leo also rules executives, so its combination with Capricorn is meaningful in any business or administrative setting. Drug, sex, and rock'n'roll were more prevalent than power for that generation.

s it's really a great movie, really well-written and well-acted. You can pick it up on eBay for five bucks or so, but it's a terrific film that was seriously under-rated in my opinion.

Ive seen the film, great stuff...James Caan...you think more of your fellow human beings than i do, Sandstone...admirable i suppose...but the inherent greed of men is pretty obvious to me..of course its a generalization and not necessarily true of all beings...i remember when i was young how other kids would laugh at the story of how the ancient hebrews bowed down to the those golden calves in the desert thinking it was absurd and as i get older i wonder how far removed we are from such a notion today....you cannot get the best weapons unless you have the money for development and research...money begets weapons, i do not think its possible to be the other way around...
There is no longer nobility in poverty, esp in the western world, people are too self centered...there are exceptions but i tend to view society generally and not focus on the sole exceptions...people are generally wanters...think about today where more children would rather be Bill Gates than the President of the USA..which 50 years ago was the general aspiration...and even the "News" is devoted to celebrities and celebutante shows such as keeping up with the kardashians and the simple life were fairly popular..there is an excellent movie called "Quiz Show" which talks about the corruption of the show "21" in the 1950s and at the end of the movie, one of the shows producers says it straight...he says people did not watch the show to watch some fantastic display of intelligence..they just wanted to watch the money..
The number one cause for divorce in this country is not infidelity, sexual incompatibility, or difference of opinion...its financial woes...Senator Schumer says the Reagan revolution is over...i disagree...todays younger generation is the product of 1980's turn of events...

As long as money (big corporation lobbyists) owns Congress, money (greed) will rule the country first and foremost.

m- mans greed is apparent to me as well, don't get me wrong.. it is like listening to everything that was given the public on the run up to war in iraq... it isn't advisable to rely on only the apparent. in fact, it is a big mistake most of the time. to think man is inherently greedy is more a reflection of ones own world view then it is a statement of fact.. oh i know, lots of facts to back lots of things up, which is why facts are usually used after the fact to back up an argument or view, instead of before.. and, the facts in this case are always selective, someone else showing how it is just the opposite with the facts they bring to counter it..
welcome to the mercurial world of duality, where nothing is real or everything is real... the mind is the slayer of the real.

Well we're all pretty cynical and cranky by now I guess, and it's hard not to be after watching the total nonsense that passes for political leadership in America, leaders who couldn't lead lemmings to a cliff in strict procession without it costing a billion dollars. We are all totally disgusted and totally exhausted by the mind-numbingly facile people who go around and around starting wars for no reason, spend spend spend other peoples' money, total idiots with not a coherent thought in their heads or a sensible word on their lips.
I've just decided I'm totally disgusted too so I'm off to bed and I think I'll kick the cat on the way.

The electorate picked him...so its their fault, plain and simple...my state is a blue state, does not matter how i vote for presidential elections, at this point presidential contests come down a handful of states...the real fault lies at the primary level when the party loyalists pick a person...that person has a large chance of becoming president...in 00, the red states picked Bush over Mccain...in 04, the blue states picked kerry..the pick of Bush and the failure of Gore to continue what should have been a slam dunk is his fault and his parties...the failure of '04 is the Democrats failure to pick a moderate candidate in which should have been an easy takeover...the pick of pelosi as speaker is failure when the pick should have been someone stronger..for all the talk in this country about change, the opportunity for change is often missed because of a lack of inspiring leaders...you hear about Hillary being the taken on by all these Democrats, yet they cant field anyone with any strength....the political problem is a field that overly leoine when what we need is alot more aquarius

M, you're a bit of a politico so I wonder who you are thinking will win the primaries and then the noms and then the presidency. You have a good sense of history and some good insight. You are also a good astrologer but I haven't seen any prognostication from you.
I have a dollar out there on Rudy and Hillary, but Huckabee is looking good these days, well he looks like a much older version of me so how could he not look good, um... but seriously? What are you thinkin'?

Thanks Wayne...
This election is going to be interesting...its one of the first times in this century where we do not have a former vice president or president running..so its really anyones game...i believe the last time was in 1952 when we had Eisenhower against Adlai Stevenson which rematched in 1956 which of course was a bloodbath for the Democrats and the first time since the civil war where we see the solid south bolt the Democratic party...
So now here we stand in 2007 after two very different presidencies...8 years of economic progress, but moral bankruptcy and 8 years of terrorism and economic stagnation at best...
My chart is one of a realist...i could care less of morality, its subjective anyways...so to me its always the economy stupid as the slogan goes...but this is not the case in the rest of this land...you would be shocked...i know lower income immigrants who would vote against Hillary because they are afraid she would legalize gay marriage and this when they are barely making ends meet under this administration!
If we look back at 52, Truman had decided not to run and the Democrats had controlled the white house for 5 terms of 20 years (4 of Roosevelt and 1 of Truman, the post war economy was picking up so people should have stayed with the Democrats, but they didnt, they chose a war hero with no record because of personality, fame and perhaps a desire to see a change of the guard...
The election day chart of November '08 shows us a similar story...there is an opposition between conservative Saturn in ever nervous and practical virgo opposing reckless uranus in pisces...this shows a sort of conflict between idealism (Uranus) and practicality (Saturn)i see it because its in the common signs and between virgo-pisces that in will be the middle classes which have a special relationship between those two signs...the deciding factor will be the moon-jupiter in their signs of detriment Capricorn which makes the decision, which is naturally the economy, esp as saturn is the dispositor, since moon and jupiter in capricorn, and saturn in virgo is in natural trine with capricorn...
So what happens? Depends on whose the most economically savy...Guliani is front runner now but the problem is his core differs with that of the Republican party (see moon square moon) if they nominate him they will sell their soul and the conservatives will bolt for a third choice, so i dont see it happening...problem is he is the only one who can beat hillary since on a national level they are both similar...
The Democrats unless they are complete idiots (which they might well be) need to pick hillary because the others are either not ready, not popular or unelectable..shes the best choice, i do think they will go with her, Obama is too liberal, Richardson too unknown, Biden lacks signifigant presence, Wesley Clark is too wishy washy, Dodd is too boring and not well known enough and John Edwards is too young, too fake and too inexperienced...
In terms of the Republicans the choice should be Mitt Romney, aside from being a mormon hes best suited, hes a former governor, which always helps (see political history), from a liberal state even though hes conservative, he looks the part(looks matter), comes from a political family (his dad was governor and his mom ran for the senate)...Thompson is too little too late and lacks gravitas...Ron Paul is smart but not well known enough and no one has been elected directly from the house of representatives since Garfield since 1881..Guliani's views are too liberal, he doesnt have enough experience, his family life is way too messy and hes not pleasing in appearance of speech...Duncan Hunter is also not well known enough and Mccain could be a good choice but hes too old and i just dont think the republican will nominate him since hes a radical, although hes not too conservative...
This leaves Romney and Huckabee...problem with Huckabee is looks, he looks haggard and lost the weight so fast that it doesnt look good on him, the state hes from is not a popular one but its in the south so that works, plus hes a baptist minister...if Huckabee can outfund Romney and convince the moral majority to bolt if Romney is picked, its his for the taking...he represents the republican party the most...but he also does have a stellium in late leo which could pose a problem with the scorpio moon Republican party...
I say it comes down to Hillary against possibly Obama and Edwards, going to Hillary and on the right Romney unless Huckabee picks up some steam...in terms of election day its going to be about the economy im yet to hear the differences outlined...but it comes down to capricorn the sign which exists to serve itself..to win the candidate better not appear to eager to change things and yet on the other hand have a good plan on bolstering this weak economy...

m - interesting perspective. thanks..
earlier today in the news >>Republican Mitt Romney today announced he's been endorsed by Paul Weyrich, a leading social conservative who co-founded the Heritage Foundation, the Moral Majority and the Free Congress Foundation.<<
what is romneys birthdata? anyone have more then a date?

M I think there are some good observations there. I do think that Romney has two problems, and the lesser is that he is Mormon. He's very rich and a successful businessman. The latter is not an asset in 2008. I think he probably will win one of the primaries at least, but he will be painted as an elitist which equals to those who have caused all the anger in the American middle class today.
I don't think Romney has a chance because of this. He's also very good looking, so much so that even I'm in love with him much to the consternation of my lady-friend, but again I think the public has had enough of slick, good-looking politicians.
2008 is going to be very very rough, probably the dirtiest ever seen. The public is ready for a tough street-fighter with some compassion.
I don't care who wins although, well kind of as I have 50 bucks on Hillary on some gambling site somewhere in Costa Rica.
Huckabee looks good right now, Obama is fading as is Thompson; they're both desperate and they're both a drink of water with nothing to say, as I said a few months ago about Obama when Obama was the new Mick Jagger. Obama is nothing, just another greedy, ambitious politician empty suit. Dodd is doddering, Edwards is a pretty-boy multi-millionaire trial lawyer - no way they will nom that creep. Richardson has some credibility and some substance but he will be rolled over by the Hillary. She does like him though... Kuchinich, the brave little Indian out there crying in the wilderness, I like him a lot but he has less chance of surviving than a corn-dog at a yahoo's baseball game ...
I really like Ron Paul because he has the courage to tell the ugly truth, but he has no chance, and I sort of like Huckabee but he is too rigid and too religious. Other than the extreme religious zealots on the Right Americans have no patience for religion right now, of any kind.
McCain is a has-been, a main-stream loser who continues to support this idiot president. You fall asleep listening to that guy go on and on and on about him being a war hero and so on, while his war-record mostly consisted of sitting in a prison cell.
Rudy and Hillary are the best fence-sitters in history, and it would be a major error to underestimate either of them, which is why they will eventually fight in the arena. And a good scrap it will be.

wayne - good comments and i agree with your assessment and view here.. what i know of richardson and kuchinich i like as well..
romneys chart reminds me a bit of tom delay, except more subtle and religiously whacked out. i would like to have a time for him though to understand him better.

I give it to Huckabee over Guliani, its true hes a bit too "drab" but hes baptist, from the south, has a decent married life and wont cause the moral majority to bolt the party...Guliani would be selling their soul, hes the best chance to win, but i cant see the religious right going for it, its not the catholic thing, or the new york thing, its not the divorce thing, but the abortion and gay rights thing....the south wont put up with it, they just wont...
It comes down to Huckabee and Romney, im a northerner and prefer Romney but i dont dislike Huckabee, hes just not very presidential...hes more in the Harry Truman mold of folksy and decent...not bad, just not very sort of average, a selling point to some but certainly not larger than life...its tough it really is...Guliani should get it, but selling it to the right is very hard, maybe if he changes his views?
Its Hillary on the left thats for sure..barring a miracle..its going to be quite the contest, we live in interesting times..its amazing what the world produces, but i suppose greatness is created by the times but as persons go, im not much inspired...and yet Bush is an idiot, Clinton was a rake, Bush Sr. was a east coast brat who pretended he was a texan, no fool but not inspiring at all, and Reagan, more an actor than we thought..im waiting for some guts and glory but so far i just see some politics as usual

M as you know all politics is hypocritical and populated with usurpers, cheats, liars and scoundrels, and that just describes the good guys!
Interesting about Truman. I believe FDR actually didn't like him at all, which wouldn't surprise me considering his Mars and Sun and all that against FDR's. Truman is now considered one of the better presidents although in his time he was thought to be the worst of the worst. How fun it is.
I was educated in England and lived there most of my life, and I never really studied US politics except as it related to England.
But to get back to it all, well Huckabee is interesting, but eventually the populace votes for the man they are willing to look at every night on TV, and Huck certainly has an ugly mug. Superficial, but sadly true. Although I don't like Huck's stance on the refurbished Forbes' flat tax ... that won't go down at all. With his religious undertones I think he really won't make it, because nobody wants a pastor in the house. Another reason Romney is going to get into trouble.
The American populace are anti-religious at the moment - that could change - but people seem totally fed up and the fact that Bush talks to God or He talks to him or whatever compounds the problem.
Americans now want a clear, crisp, definite, decided president to steer us through these murky muddied waters that the ship of America is in right now.

Ah yes...
The British know a great deal more about politics than us Americans, i know a good deal of the British monarchy and something of the politics of it...
To me Truman is actually very much like Clement Atlee, both very "earthy" types and disliked by their predecessors, Churchill once told of Atlee being a very humble man said of Atlee, indeed he has much to be humble about...both Truman and Atlee were underestimated from day one...both improved the welfare state and proved to be while unassuming strong leaders...
Roosevelt actually liked his vice president Wallace, but he was a mystic and a communist sympathizer and the party forced him to dump him, they didnt want him to begin with...both Truman and Wallace had Scorpio moons...that says something for public discord...Roosevelt himself had his moon in Cancer much like cherished uncle Teddy..
I havent really cared much for the British prime ministers of late...Gordon Brown is about as exciting as a head cold...Blair was a sellout...John Major dull and drab, really a caretaker...Thatcher is interesting, I just didnt agree with much of her politics...Eden was a disaster...i rather liked Harold MacMillan...
Its interesting you say that American's are anti-religious at the moment, i think that applies more to the coasts and midwest...but the solid south, they always go for religion, its like they cant help themselves..
Huckabee scares me in the sense that he does not buy into evolution at all...i mean there is some basis for it the principle even if its not exactly right...we cant afford to make any more decisions based on religion like stem cell research, this administration has turned the clock in medical research back 20 years ago...thats why Huckabee scares me a bit more than Romney..i think Romney is more practical about it..
The British monarchy needs a king more like Edward VII, who understood the art of diplomacy...who would be perfect for the times...the Queen is much too cold...Charles no one will take seriously almost like a speed bump till his son inherits the thrown..
The US and UK need more internationally minded leaders, Blair had potential till he sold his soul out of loyalty to Bush, admirable but still an undoing...Gordon Brown inspires very little hes not dynamic enough, he inherited a position without an election much like a John Major and thats really what hell end up being like...
All we have in this country are a bunch of cow-towers with no balls, give me a Nixon, a Goldwater...at least they were fun, my god watching CNN is lethal, even Hillary whose life has been interesting cannot hold any attn..i still cant help feeling im stuck in the wrong time...

M, a couple of points and it's two in the morning so I may not be totally lucid ... you will forgive ...
I love Churchill because he was actually incredibly unpopular in the 30's as a "backbencher" and yet emerged really, as the man who saved the world! A truly brilliant man who warned the world time and again that Hitler was a madman who would eventually attack Europe. No one listened. Perhaps that is a problem of Mercury square Uranus. Oscar Wilde, who also had Mercury afflicted by Uranus, said, " well if no one wants to read me now I shall write for posterity". Churchill and Wilde were both great men in my opinion.
The British haven't produced much in the way of political leaders since Thatcher, although I was there in May this year and Brown is considered competent sort of and generally an alright bloke, although the bastard is a bloody Scotsman LOL. He's seen as doing a good job generally but gently pulling away from the idiocy of the Bush administration's, um, policies, if there are any.
Blair is despised as a lackey fool, Bush's "little dog". Blair is actually loathed generally by the British people, which might account for why he fled the country after he "resigned" and now lives in Dubai with his big-assed bitch of a wife Cheri - OK it's past two, so cut me some slack ... I will be in London next week and will report back.
I don't really agree with your observations on Edward VII - history has not been kind to him and in his day he was considered a dilettante and a glutton. He never really accomplished much during his brief reign. Victoria seemed to think that he was not ever fit for throne which is why she did not abdicate in his favor.
As for Charles, of course that is a sad situation on two legs. I have a sense that Charles is related to Bush, a guy so disconnected from reality that the British wish he would just go away somewhere and never come back, along with his smoky Camilla - she has to light up a fag every fifteen minutes you know.
It doesn't really look good for the British monarchy
As for you being stuck in the wrong time my friend, share the pain LOL

As far as Churchill is considered i didn't include him in this naming of prime ministers as he was a war prime minister so there the circumstances are very different...the afflictions can always produce better results than the harmonious aspects, the problem is they can also produce disasters...usually they are called upon during unconventional times...in normalcy they can prove problematic..
Churchill was indeed one of a kind...but had be lived in any other time he would have been thought a crackpot..probably like Hitler who would have never achieved his position had the economic disaster occurred to precipitate it...Lincoln, Washington, FDR were men of their times...its unfair to count a Bush or a Clinton in the same survey...just very different..
I believe Hitler had the Mercury-Uranus opposition...Lincoln and Charles Darwin born the same day had a virtually exact trine...the time is usually called for which to activate it...Atlee is underrated because he was after a war...As was Truman, history in retrospect has been kinder to them, as it often is to the Scorpio moon, hated in their own time, forgiven much later...Truman, Carter, Atlee etc...
Edward VII kept Europe at peace from his reign in 1901-1910 when he died...i believe he had two t-squares..typical sagittarius rising with Jupiter there..fat and jolly..a bon vivante but it worked...after he died the Kaiser got his way (Scorpio moon as well as much of the Victorian royal family, his mother, Princess Vicky and grandfather, Prince Albert shared the moon to the virtually exact degree)and started the avalanche that led to World War II..his son George V, a decent man, but who lacked vision and diplomacy couldn't rein in his cousin..European policy was decided by royals till the fall of the kaiser and his cousin Czar Nicholas II and from then on became much more government based..
When the royals became Windsors as opposed to their real Germanic name, the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha's they kept their thrown, sold their ancestry and lost their soul and the monarchy lacked its power ever since...Elizabeth is no Victoria and while her father and mother were strong figures, they couldn't save the monarchy from this bunch...its a whose who of losers...
We need greater leadership in this country...what we have are career politicians who play the game brilliantly but are lame and without foresight...Bill Clinton did have it, but this recent crop is very uninspiring...I just do not see a president Huckabee...astrology aside...it should come down to Romney against Hillary..which is interesting...Him a Pisces sun with a Scorpio moon and her a Scorpio sun with a Pisces moon...that would be something

M, on your point on leadership, or lack of it at the present time, it's always been interesting to me to see how many great leaders arose during the scond world war, arguably the most critical time for the planet. FDR, Churchill, Stalin, Hitler, Tito, Franco, de Gaulle, Mussollini, Gandhi, Mao - I may have missed a couple. All of these men were great leaders, even if some of them weren't especially nice guys. Perhaps critical times produce great leaders, perhaps it's just coincidence, or perhaps their abilities are magnified by the times - I don't know.
I do know that if we went back to 1939 Bush would be the last guy I would want running the US, and there is really no one on the horizon who can take charge at this time, although the best is Hillary and Bill.
I still can't see Romney v's Hillary. Frankly I think Americans are totally and utterly fed up right now, and they want just the plain truth and clear and straight-forward policies. For this reason I believe it will be Guiliani, especially as he is the clearest, regardless of the abortion and immigrant issues.
Romney has a lot of problems of his own. He's too rich, and too good looking for one thing, and Americans don't want a fantastically handsome man as president this time, which is why I'm not running.
American's want the real deal, after all the chaos and fiasco's and incompetence and scandals of the last seven years.
Ron Paul would be my boy if I thought he had a chance, but he doesn't, even though he's the only one telling the truth. Republicans generally don't like him, which tells me something about Republicans. Hillary, the old broad who's still a babe will take it for the Dem's, and her Ace in the hole is Bill, who has been quietly working the circuit. Hillary has an incredibly strong grass roots organization and a ton of money. Don't underestimate just how low Bill and Hill will go to win...
So, more chaos, mayhem and disaster when Hillary wins ... may you live in interesting times ...
That was a bit of a rant but after I lost my barrel today on the markets (I lost my shirt last week and bought a barrel, now even that's gone). After I talk my broker in off the ledge and regain what's left of my mind I'll get back with a more sensible post.

Qatar Contract Offers Glimpse Into Giuliani Firm Dealings Have Potential For Trouble If Ex-Mayor Receives Nomination By MARY JACOBY November 7, 2007
Rudy Giuliani is one of the few candidates ever to pursue the White House while maintaining a high-ranking role in a private-sector firm. But since he became a candidate for president, the Republican front-runner has rebuffed all calls to disclose details about the clients and dealings of Giuliani Partners, the consulting firm he founded in 2002.
http://yourfreepress.blogspot.com/
i thought it was interesting so i posted it..sounds like a possible pluto transit to an angle fwiw.

Wayne, add a few million more to Crazy Uncle Ron Paul. That's what his internet blitz brought in. He's getting hot in my conservative neck of the woods. I was out and about last weekend and was somewhat stunned to see his signs in middle class neighborhoods with nice yards. But this is Walmart land where it's everyman for him or her self.
Guiliani just got the crazy of the crazy endorsement today, none other than Pat Robertson, the looney preacher who wishes god's wrath and pending death upon all who he doesn't like. Oh yes, Robertson is a blood diamond dealer too.
What's our various takes on Rudy and the huge Jupiter/Pluto conj next month opposing Rudy's Saturn and Mc??
I suspect it will be what sandstone posted about Rudy coming clean on his dealings. Maybe Hillary will get him out on a limb about her "unreleased papers."

It could be a dark horse election, esp with saturn-uranus in opposition and with no president or vice president running...however, like i said its nowadays impossible to jump from the house to the presidency...unless your a majority leader or even speaker of the house, but then again i cant remember the last time the speaker of the house or majority leader hit the presidency...LBJ was majority and minority leader in the senate but he was VP first...Dole was a minority leader but that was in the senate..you just do not get enough ink to become known enough..Paul is out, same reason Kucinich is..not enough exposure...the media runs the country...Saturn is in Libra in the US chart has alot to do with it...Jupiter in Cancer has alot to do with money doing the rest...last time someone lept from the house was 1881 and it was Garfield, so he seems to have little to no chance...
There is really no viable reason Guliani should be nominated let alone win, there is just not..hes not conservative enough to be a Republican and the south will probably only vote for him if he faces Clinton, Obama or a complete liberal, which is of course possible, but still he has to sell himself to the conservative base which is no easy task...they just wont buy his past...its too entrenched...he also was never anything beyond Mayor and the last time a mayor of NY tried to get the nomination was John Lindsay in the 1970s and that went bust and he was a lot better looking and had less of a shady background than Rudy...
Guliani is actually a fair match with Hillary, background wise, there are alot of bodies buried with both of them...i suspect as it gets tighter both will have more explaining to do..thats what that transit will probably do as you spoke of LWood...the media is not going to be nice, esp to a Republican, so if theres stuff to dig up, Gulianis will come floating to the service..there is a liberal bias to the press, regardless of what it is said (except for Fox News, they are Fascists)
The times make the person so i think it is impossible to know what will happen...take Guliani for instance, 911 made him...before that he was only better than his predecessor, but certainly not presidential timber...then all of the sudden hes knighted and in it...what a fortuitous turn of events...someone look at the transits on his chart for that day...must be golden..
He is really a one-trick pony..hell play the 9/11 security card...it depends how much mileage he can get out of it..im sure Obama will play the race card and Hillary to some extent the female card...only women are not a minority as far as i am concerned so i doubt it matters..
If its not going to be Romney, Wayne, then logically it should be Huckabee, the rest are not ready for prime time, except Mccain whose probably past it..wonder what the Vegas odds are on..

Well the transits that Rudy is having between now and New Hampshire do not bode well. He has Saturn square his Sun and Pluto opposite his Saturn exact hits this week and next. Bernard Kerik is about to get indicted on federal charges of bribery and tax evasion. The New York firefighters are pushing for an investigation of the no bid contract for new radios with Motorola. These radios failed causing the NYFD to use the radios that failed in the 1993 attack. They did not hear the evacuation order in the North Tower.
The Saturn station will square his Uranus for the Iowa Caucuses and New Hampshire primary. Saturn will be exact on his IC opposite MC and square his Ascendent/ Descendant axis. It is approaching a square to his Neptune contributing to the shattering of illusions. He has had Neptune transiting opposite his Jupiter and it will be exact again in January. Someone with Jupiter Moon conjunction in Leo in the 11th house can be overconfident, and with this transit he may find out his lead evaporating. Look for someone to capitalize on his estrangement from his children that he had from Donna Hanover. I see an avalanche of negative ads coming from his rivals and the firefighters. He likely will come in third in Iowa. I think Ron Paul will do well in New Hampshire which could be a very bad result for Giuliani. He could very well dropout. I think there could be a bloody campaign which could mean no one clinching before the Republican convention.

>>> Guiliani just got the crazy of the crazy endorsement today, none other than Pat Robertson, the looney preacher who wishes god's wrath and pending death upon all who he doesn't like. Oh yes, Robertson is a blood diamond dealer too. <<<
Lwood I thought that was funny too, but Rudy needs all the loony Right support he can get as he is seen as way too Liberal, especially by the evangenical Christians. So it was actually a coup for him. You and I might think Robertson is a ding-dong but a lot of Americans think he is a great man. It is a bit of a worry isn't it ...

>>> If its not going to be Romney, Wayne, then logically it should be Huckabee, the rest are not ready for prime time, except Mccain whose probably past it..wonder what the Vegas odds are on.. <<<
M, the latest odds from Linemakers.com:
I have 50 bucks on Hillary and got 3/1, but I put the bet on last year. She is now 1/3, so it's clear who they think will win the nom. Obama is 2/1 and Edwards is at 7/1. Interestingly Richardson is at 12/1, pretty good odds for him ... I have some sense he will be the VP pick. Poor little Dennis is at 60/1 and Wesley Clark is 100/1.
Linemakers give Romney and Guiliani and McCain as virtually tied at 9/5, Thompson at 7/2 and Ron Paul at 4/1. Huckabee is 15/1. I think they have McCain pegged wrong - the guy is so boring the only time I watch him speak is when I have insomnia.

still no one with a birth time for romney hey? would be nice to get. i will ask my mormon friend who is into politics.

Wayne, I mentioned Richardson as veep a few days ago, on Hillary's thread, I think. One of my psychic flashes while driving to work :). Makes sense to me from a geographical standpoint. I think someone argued that he and Hillary were too much alike (they are only a couple of weeks apart) and that he wanted to be prez. Seems to me that's why all the veep candidates say okay to the job - they are prez in waiting.
Thought about Zayin's suggestion of Clark and don't think it likely, but when I mentioned it to a friend last night - she thought it was a great idea. Like Clark a lot - considers him knowledgeable and honest. Likes his military experience. Said if not veep, then maybe Sec. of State.
As far as the time for Romney- Zayin says he's working on it, but suggested midnight to 3AM - Sag rising.

Penn I wouldn't get too excited about Richardson. All he brings to the table is the Hispanic vote and some credibility as competent governor. He probably doesn't bring men with him, and Hillary is weak in support from men.
As for Clark, well he too has some military credibility and he's kept his nose clean over the past few years but no way is he a contender, and I doubt anyone with a military background would make it as SoS these days, with the public thoroughly fed up with the wars and a new one looming if that clown in the White House has his way.
By the way the national debt today increased to over NINE TRILLION DOLLARS, with deficits and borrowing as far as we can see in the future, an indefinite war and a new one about to start. The Bush idiot inherited an economy with surplus' of hundreds of billions and has managed to piss everything away in a few short years. The creep still shows his face in public, but he can barely leave the White House as he is so detested, even in a city full of hypocrites like Washington.
I've had my rant for the day.

Moderator's note to Sandstone: The next ADB Newsmaker (11/15/07) will feature Mitt Romney with an 'A' rating bith time. Richard

Moderator's note to Sandstone: The next ADB Newsmaker (11/15/07) will feature Mitt Romney with an 'A' rating bith time. Richard

thanks richard... how about throwing us a few bones while we wait for you to put it up? thanks either way for that little tid bit... my friend hasn't gotten back to me yet, but he is well connected and will probably be able to furnish it..

Richard might I suggest that ADB construct's a political forum just for the American presidential election? There are lots of us who are politically-minded and I for one hate to clog up the individual treads with my rants, but I do anyway. I think it's why we all "lose the plot" (a humerous Australian term) as we rave on about this and that, and I will admit that I am the worst offender ...
ADB is one of the most mature astrology sites around, and since we all love each other these days and can have a laugh and a joke and a rant this might be worthwhile ...
Just a suggestion.

wayne, i think that is a great idea. a political rant page that is another zone for the political junkies with astrological tendancies to frequent.. they could call it the political junkie thread and you would be the main poster! better yet, just call it waynes world and invite all sorts of comparisions.. btw- that is one movie i did see!

s, guilty as charged. Since my broker has been reduced to a member of the legume family at the recent stock market fluctuations (old Woody Allen quote) I no longer have anyone sensible to talk to except you, myself and Fluffy the cat.

Wayne, I only mentioned Richardson again because you brought up the possibility. In most cases the veep candidate isn't that well known - only becomes so when on he ticket.
Who do you see as Hillary's running mate?

quote from my friend which includes an interesting joke at the end... >>the best suggestion I can give to you to obtain this information is bring up Mitt's website which undoubtedly will have a place to get in touch. Tell them the truth. You are an astrologer, and would like to have the time of day Mr. Romney was born. It is as simple as that, but I can't guarantee an answer, however knowing Mr. Romney's reputation, I think it as likely, if not more so, you will get an answer from him than any other candidate. He is very forthright. I once met his Father George Romney, President of American Motors, who also ran for President, but have never met Mitt, although have out of state friends who are personally acquainted. I prefer not to seek this kind of personal information through them, however. Interesting joke, if you will, regarding Mormon's and their reputation for more than one wife, ie plural marriage banned by our Prophet at the time, before the turn of the 20th Century. Did you know Mitt Romney is the only Republican candidate who has not had more than one wife? All others have had at least two, and three!. Tee Hee!<<
sounds like a sag rising.

Hi,
Sag is what Zayin thinks - midnight to 3AM. We'll see on November 15, I guess.
I tried getting birth information from and for any number of people, candidates, murderers (the mystery guy's wife) and never got a reply of any sort and I can write some schmoozy letters.
As far as the number of wives - from what I understand Mormons are opposed to divorce, although I personally know one couple. Years ago I worked for a 7th Day Adventist, which is not the same thing, but similar in many respects, who still lived in the same house with his wife, but they had no relationship other than financial. But the religion forbade divorce and so,they stayed married.
Then, there's Marie Osmond who is divorcing husband #2.
Romney'd have to have the other wife concurrent with this one in order to be somewhat in line with the Church's initial teachings. Wouldn't that stir up the stew?

Speaking of Mitt Romney, the Encyclopedia Mittanica reports: "Mitt Romney rescued the 2002 Winter Olympics [in Salt Lake City] by turning a $379 million deficit into a $100 million profit as emergency C.E.O. He also supervised a multi-national security effort that allowed the 2002 Olympics to proceed without incident only a year after September 11th."
According to that, it sounds like Mitt might also be good at getting this country out of some of the mess it's in. And as it turns out, I found his birth time, but Richard probably doesn't want me to reveal it yet. Right Richard?
BTW, only some "Fundamentalist Mormons" (a completely severed sect not in any way associated with regular Mormons) practice polygamy in this day and age. Modern day Mormons would NEVER condone it in any way, shape, or form.

Also, for anyone that's interested, regarding Mormons and pleural marriage: It's an entirely different situation after death, i.e., in the afterlife. While on earth a guy can get married in the temple to more than one wife (after divorce or becoming widowed) and thereby still be "sealed" to each of them after death, "for time and all eternity", but a woman can have only ONE temple marriage on earth and therefore only one guy in the afterlife or "celestial kingdom." So in that sense regular Mormons do hold onto the original polygamy idea and "practice."

Well a couple of points. Mitt Romney no doubt is an excellent business-man no doubt and a talented guy. But the Morman thing is going to be a big hurdle for him, especially in the South and in California. Also, I believe he was pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage in Mass. and this will come back to haunt him because he no longer appears to be.
As for Hillary's running mate, Penn, I wouldn't rule out Richardson but he really only brings the Hispanic vote and Hillary probably has that already. It won't be Obama for sure, bucause she also has the Black vote. She needs men so it will have to be someone who appeals to men's issues and is to the Right of Hillary. It probably can't be another senator so Richardson probably does make sense out of all those running. However, I also think people want a fresh face so it may well be someone who is under the radar at the moment.

Apologies if this is covering old ground. The UK media are saying today that Rudy Giuliani's presidential bid may be de-railed by his association with Bernard Kerik, in court yesterday on Federal corruption and tax charges. And it's right on cue astrologically as Saturn this week squares his Gemini Sun, going on in late November to square Uranus for six weeks. With Pluto also opposition his Saturn November. This is a setback of a major order and will bring jolting, jarring changes to his image and campaign. From late December as well Neptune opposes Giuliani's Jupiter which tends to bring falsely high hopes tumbling down into disappointment as well as hinting at financial over confidence - that runs on and off until 2009. The discouraging Saturn square Sun repeats in January 08 and again late July/August 08. Be interesting to see Romney's chart. Tho' to be truthful I haven't been following the hopefuls charts thro' the veeery long run in.

I don't see the Kerik issue as important at all. In a month no one will care.
Note that Rudy has already stated that his choice of Kerik was a mistake. Americans like people who admit they have made mistakes, then they forgive and move on. Nixon was forced to resign precisely because he DIDN'T admit to his big mistake - it wasn't the crime, it was the cover-up. Had he done so a few people would have gone to jail for a few months and would be considered one of the more successful presidents.

Saturn square Sun and Uranus on and off till mid 2008 plus Neptune opposing Jupiter? Doesn't sound like a winning streak to me - if not Kerik something else?

Well Rudy has all sorts of problems - his apparently Left-wing points of view on gay marriage, abortion and illegal immigration for example. All the other Republicans have serious problems also, especially in the area of religion. Huckabee is an extremist and has some half-brained ideas on reforming tax policy. We've already discussed Romney.
What it will come down to is that Republicans will choose someone they think will beat Hillary, even if they have to hold their noses while they choose the nominee. The only other two are Thompson and McCain, both of whom are dead-men walking in my opinion, although they won't lie down. The really worthwhile Republican, Ron Paul, is despised by several in the Republican party and has no chance, despite his recent surge in popularity with young people. The problem is that young people don't vote, only old blokes like me do. I will vote for Nader, the most honest politician out there, even though he's not running.

The only thing that doesn't turn me on about all this ridiculous circus running for president, and marjorie is quite correct that it is too long (goes back to 19th Century rules when the stage-coach was the preferred method of transport), is that all these idiots running for the office will soon have to dress up in hunter's gear and go off shooting defenseless critters for the cameras, so that they can show that they are "real men".
I have never understood the lust to hunt animals, unless for food. Hunting is for those who are for are weak and insecure and the in any case the need to kill for trophies is despicable.

No the transits indicate that Kerik problem will get worse. See my previous post. Not only Saturn and Neptune but also Pluto dredging up past indiscretions. That ole Rudy appointed him corrections chief, Police commissioner, and recommended him for Homeland Security all after he was warned about Kerik's mob ties. That shows severely poor judgement. I think the trial will reveal some more dirt about Giuliani. His opponents will keep this alive. There is an abundance of video and audio of Giuliani showing his arrogance, anger problems, and authoritarian tendencies. Kerik was appointed to train the Iraqi police and left after two months. Giuliani was kicked off the Iraq Study group because he was a no show. His speaking fees were important than serving his country.
Kerik is not the only associate that is corrupt. His Housing Development chief Russell Harding went to prison for embezzlement. He has a child molester priest working for him. who also covered up other molesters. Senator David "Hooker" Vitter was his southern campaign coordinator. His former South Carolina chairman Thomas Ravenel, is an accused cocaine dealer.
Giuliani Partners firm worked for Purdue Frederick which recently pled guilty to not informing the public about the addiction dangers of oxycontin. GP also has a contract with Qatar. An official there tipped off Khalid Shiekh Mohammed in 1996 that he was being pursued. He later planned the 9/11 attacks.
Giuliani has Neptune rising square Saturn on the midheaven. This aspect show a conflict between reality and image. Kerik and Giuliani were not heroes on 9/11. There were numerous failures. Giuliani had put the Crisis Command Center in WTC7 despite the attack of 1993. There were no drills during that time. Giuliani also failed to keep the fire and police commands that day. The fireman in the north building did not hear the command because the radios failed. Giuliani also later said that the air around Ground Zero was ok. Many rescue and recovery workers have become severely ill and some have died. Hilary Clinton on the other hand worked for health care for the workers.
Rudy also has Trans Neptunian minor planet Quaoar conjunct Neptune and the Ascendant, square Saturn. This aspect shows someone who can manipulate people with fear. The Mercury in the 8th house square Pluto also shows the Giuliani campaign is based on fear and death. This also shows his support of torture. The Kerik indictments are just another example of this would President's poor judgement. When all this information gets out to the nation his poll numbers will plummet. The only reason his polling is good now is the media created image of him as the hero of 9/11. He would just continue the worst part of Bush if he were to become President.

The Kerik issue might cause some tension, but i doubt it will cripple him...he has a full eleventh house, so problems with friends should not be much of a surprise, especially when its principle ruler, the sun, is closely conjunct uranus...all sorts of odd things are bound to come out of the wood-work...
Saturn is also transiting the 12th house of secrets and karma, approaching a square to the sun-uranus conjunction and putting some stress on the 11th house and interestinly 6th house rules, 6th house rules employees and colleagues and the 11th house rules friends, Bernard Kerik is conveniently enough both...the square is apt to cause problems...i believe Kerik is a Virgo with a leo rising which would put saturn transiting his late 1st and 2nd houses causing his personality (1st) and financial activities (2nd) to come under scrutiny..
Its true that the 12th house is the house of undoing, but I think Guliani has weathered his personal issues rather well for a politician..almost in the Clinton mold...Kerik is not enough to sink him
Its true that the square between Neptune and Saturn cause problems between reality and illusion, I myself suffer from it, however, it also causes in many cases fear of things that do not exist or things not to be feared of..a person with a difficult aspect can also create reality (Saturn) out of illusion (Neptune)..Guliani is quite talented at that..he took a largely failing mayorship and made it a political platform..making him well respected internationally for doing his job if even that...he is a very talented magician to say the least..
Kerik's Nodes at 22 Sagittarius/Gemini make a conjunction to Guliani's Saturn...since the south node makes a conjunction albeit a bit wide, even though to me 5 degrees...there is a karmic relationship between the two, Guliani was probably Kerik's boss in a previous lifetime and the relationship has come back to roost...in addition we see that Kerik's sun/mars/Venus conjunction in Virgo falls in Guliani's 12th house...this was probably in the last previous lifetime..an interesting combination as Kerik is causing more problems than he was ever worth for Guliani

The timing of US report suggesting the cost of the Iraq war is probably double the official figure is interesting if you look at the Iraq Attack chart relocated to Washington (20 March 2003, 5.30 am Baghdad). In Washington it puts Pluto in the 2nd (19 Sag) opp Saturn in 8th (22 Gem) square Mercury (27) and Sun (29 Pisces) in 5th. That was always going to make the Iraq War awesomely expensive for the US and all for a grandstanding exercise. Transitting Pluto still in 2nd till 2010/11 is at the moment square Mercury so intense discussions over money. And it ain't going to be going away as Pluto then moves on to square the Sun from late December. And Uranus next year will unsettle, to put it mildly, the Saturn Pluto opposition by square. Given that the Iraq Attack chart for Baghdad has Pluto (19 Sag) conjunct a 20 Sag MC is interesting to conjecture what is going to happen next year when Uranus comes up to the square. Can't see how it can be derailed much more. And transitting Pluto won't leave the 10th house even on equal houses until mid next decade. The phoenix arising from the ahses will be a long time acoming.

marjorie, the iraq war will be derailed more with turkeys involvement and any number of scenarios that could come out of the region surrounding iraq - israel/iran in particular.. starting the iraq war was like opening pandoras box. i believe the folks responsible for the rush to war were aware of this and did it knowingly... they need to be held accountable at a war tribunal.. this is also why munaskey wasn't sure if waterboarding is torture or not... if he had have been some accounting could have started sooner rather then later.

Here is a man of extremes I see no moderation in him. Perhaps if America intends to create more wars and not peace he is the right guy as he can easily keep a poker face while conducting a heinous covert operation. Perhaps this is why the Reptilians chose him as their candidate. Reckless mutiblity Gemini sun conjunct Uranus extra-ordinar Power war Pluto Mars in fire conjunt NorthNode infact a fiery stalium and that also in the dictatorial position . God Help! Then that poker Neptune in the Libra sweetness! can get away with much!

Here is a man of extremes I see no moderation in him. Perhaps if America intends to create more wars and not peace he is the right guy as he can easily keep a poker face while conducting a heinous covert operation. Perhaps this is why the Reptilians chose him as their candidate. Reckless mutiblity Gemini sun conjunct Uranus extra-ordinar Power war Pluto Mars in fire conjunt NorthNode infact a fiery stalium and that also in the dictatorial position . God Help! Then that poker Neptune in the Libra sweetness! can get away with much!

I see in NY, Governor Spitzer is in retreat and abandoned his immigration "ploy", clever move...typical overriding Leo influence...step on a Leos tail and hes just a kitty cat...
The problem in Iraq is not so much what have we done, but what will we do..i find that consistent with Saturn in Virgo...Saturn in Cancer is all about defense..Saturn in Leo is all about glory..Once it gets into Virgo than we start to think about what the consequences are..Devil is really in the details now, isnt it? The gas prices are going up, some predictions put it at 5 bucks a gallon by the spring time..the state of Maine is so poor that some people can either heat their homes or afford to fill their cars with gas...The picket lines are already forming..
Wonder how much of Iran is talk and how much is reality...the region is going in some sort of tailspin...not even Turkey is pissed...i agree what they did to the Armenians was genocide but by passing that resolution we basically just pissed them off..so now friends are not such good friends..We better be careful in Pakistan too, Mushtarraf might be a dictator but we can reason with him, its about five inches from a fundamentalist take over...Bhutto cant handle it there..Rice is a bust a sec'y of state..so is pelosi in the house...might swing the voters against Hillary

Judith Nathan, publisher/shark and former paramour of Kerik is suing NewsCorp for wrongful termination. She reported that Newscorp people told to to lie to investigators about the Kerik investigation fearing Rudy would have unpleasant revelations. Roger Ailes is Giuliani's good buddy and Sean Hannitty has a big man crush on him. Fox News is essentially endorsing Rudy. Nathan is not that credible but she is bad person to cross. Her birthday reveals a close Sun/Pluto conjunction, Moon in Scorpio, Mercury and Mars in Leo. (I will not be IGNORED!) I would think she has some tapes. Of course she timed the suit with Kerik indictment. No doubt Romney has some juicy attack ads. Two fireman groups want to bring him down. Me thinks Moon Jupiter conjunctions are the epitome of hubris.
I forgot to mention his foreign policy team of neocons which include the king of warmongers Norman Podohretz. Norman was a key promoters of the Iraq war. Rudy's 11th house is a perfect fit for the Project for the New American Century.
His poll numbers are sliding in New Hampshire. McCain is ahead of him and Ron Paul is gaining ground. He is behind Romney and Huckabee in Iowa and it could be worse since he did not campaign there. Ron Paul has Pluto transiting trine Sun in Leo transit and Uranus transiting trine Mars and Jupiter in Scorpio.

hi patrick, i like the comment you made about moon/jupiter and hubris.. i think it might be the case in some signs/houses more then others, but leo would definitely qualify. do you have a definitive birth time for ron paul? i assume you are just working with his day chart. thanks for your comments.

Good comments Patrick. It's no accident Giuliani is not in Iowa. The real shakedown is still to come in the larger primary states by Feb 5. Rudy is building his public support and religious endorsements, Moon-Jupiter. Iowa is important to unknowns and underfunded candidates. Saturn makes a Rx station exactly square his Uran on Dec 19. He will have some 'splaining ' to do.

Oh yea, I think the Saturn sqr Rudy's Su/Uran cjn (Dec 19) is accompanied by the Merc/Jupiter/Pluto conj which will oppose his Saturn, more 'splaining' to do and many new fires to extinguish. Will be a real test/turning point for his campaign and his life.

There's something incredibly dark about R. Giuliani. For example, why is it never mentioned that Giuliani amazingly popped up in London, during the day of the bombings back in 2005? We had just been in London, but luckily escaped the mayhem. Amazingly, Giuliani pops out of a subway entrance the same day (I believe that morning). Coincidence? I wonder.
Also, there are other unexplained aspects of him that suggest there is a lot of Plutonian things under the surface. On AAR, someone played a clip of a Giuliani interview. The narrator asked Giuliani a question about 9/11 - something about the whole event that didn't make sense. Giuliani starts giggling in such an inappropriate place in the interview. It was like - he couldn't stop himself. Like he has a magnificent secret that no one else knows - or he's hiding something.
If you look at photos of him, there's just something so replulsive about him, it just makes your skin crawl.

Giuliani was in London to give a speech to a local government conference on the Wednesday following the bombings. There is no evidence of something "dark" or sinsiter about that trip, which had been plannned several months in advance.

wayne, don't look now!
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/08/nyregion/08giuliani.html
nice to see you back..

Americans are a joke among Europeans for publicizing the personal lives of candidates, for counting their girlfriends and marriages. Giuliani is the only candidate who can protect this country from her enemies, and who cares about anything else? He worked miracles in New York, as has no other politician in any large city. He's the only candidate who can beat Clinton who would be a disaster for the U.S.

Can anyone in this group of liberals and phony fortune tellers explain why the birthtime on Rodden's chart is is 2:30 pm, whereas Horoscope magazine gives out the birth time as 4:37 am?

nkh0514@comcast.net - your comments reflect a hostile and negative attitude..i guess that is your main point! i will be suprised if anyone even bothers to respond to you.. this is as much as you get from me.

nkh0514 you make too many assumptions. First, the site is not full of raving Liberals. I for one don't like the Democrats, but I also can't stand the stinkin' Republicans including that monumental clod G W Bush and the rest of the Republican idiots who have added $5.3 TRILLION to the national debt during Bush's disastrous presidency. Since you appear to be on the Right politically, and the Right prides itself on its fiscal responsibility, I wonder how you would explain this.
As for "phony fortune tellers", I don't see any evidence of this in these forums. For the most part we discuss astrological concepts as best we can, given that birth data are often inaccurate or difficult to verify, as you point out. However, most astrologers, being aware of the problems with the data, drill up a level so to speak and deal with the day-chart, which in itself will give considerable amount of information.

hmmm, also among Europeans is the great laugh that American's give a flip about what Europeans think! What fun they are having with this.
Regarding Giuliani's chart, he had some lovely transits in the fall but they ended at the end of November along with Hillary's. Now, he has a very challenging hit. Mars crossing his Saturn...Saturn being the structure or organization, Mars being action. These two energies for lack of a better word, don't get along at all. It's rather like a tension that stops momentum. Rather like driving with one foot an the brakes and one on the gas. Mars will make the final Pass to that SAturn in Feb. If he is still in the race he gets a boost.
Meanwhile, Pluto and Jupiter give him some PR but he needs to overcome the inertia of the Mars SAturn to be seen as a man of action. cynthia the independant

cynthia, i have read two book recently which both have a speculative time for the usa chart which while both with virgo ascendant, have a different year and date.. ronald w howlands chart for 11am july 4 1776 and helen boyds chart for 11am july 6 1775.
both of these charts are discussed at length ( in same order as above) in martin davis 'astrolocality astrology' book and jim lewis's 'the psychology of astrocartography'.
why i bring this up which is what makes it interesting is in the jim lewis book he does a chapter on wars and the usa chart where the saturn/neptune and mars lines pass over europe.. mars runs right over berlin.. it is an interesting connection he makes..pluto rising line runs thru iran and the edge of afganastan, while mercury setting runs thru pakistan.. the saturn and mars lines continue to run down thru libya as well..
he is basically saying( and i am really cutting to the chase here) europe will generally have an ambivalent attitude towards the usa and vice verse, even if they do try to work together.. of note the venus setting line runs straight thru israel, but it runs thru syria and jordan as well! saturn setting is running thru egypt.
it is interesting that for this same 'boyd' chart the sun/moon square lines are hemming in iraq.. would have been interesting to read jim lewis's ideas on this given the centrality of iraq to usa foreign policy at present..
i think whenever a country isolates itself by thinking it doesn't have to care about the views of other countries it is going down a dark road, especially as we are more interconnected globally then ever before.. i think i understand your feelings but wanted to give your comments an astrological spin..

S, I agree astrocartography is absolutely fascinating, especially Jim Lewis' tapes on it. He was such a great speaker in general and also had some wonderful personal anecdotes that really make the subject come alive. For instance, if I remember correctly, he talks about his Natal Mars line going right through a certain city in Utah, and of the 3 times he drove through there in his whole lifetime, he had car trouble or a flat tire every single time!
Cynthia, yea, I'm surprised Tr. Mars Conj. Saturn doesn't work better. Even though (according to Hand)it can be "good for work that requires concentrated energy, great discipline, or very careful technique," otherwise it can be difficult, "full of frustrations and irritating occurrences," including people, etc., which certainly wouldn't make the circus of the campaign trail any easier!

Carol The way I look at planets in transit or conjunction is very basic: If their nature is similar that go together easily. The different the more difficult.
With Saturn and Mars they are so different, it's really hard to get them to work together. If Mars dominates, the person needs to cultivate patience and perserverance. If Saturn dominates, they might need to get more exercise and do some action that serves others.
Put Mars with Neptune or the SN and he has a hard time expressing his maleness. Put him with the NN and he can be pushy.
Of course, Venus is more cooperative so she can get along fairly well with Saturn. But put her with the NN or Jupiter and she can really get into indulgence.
Of course, there is always the potential to integrate the energies and you have to ask each person how he deals with some of the basic traits of the planets.
I see the transit of Saturn to mars, or the Moon as some of the most difficult of all transits. This transit of Mars to SAturn is unusally long because of the retrograde and so acts more like Saturn to Mars than Mars to Saturn. His natal Mars Pluto will give me push but might bring out pushiness if he gets behind. Hillary has the Mars, Saturn Pluto so we see some of the same traits natally in her. Of course, she was born with it so has had a long time to integrate it into her life.

Well put, Cynthia, and I agree that "there is always the potential to integrate the energies", not only if the planets go together easily but especially if the planets are in good shape, i.e., dignified or exalted. For instance, I would think a Mars/Saturn conj. in Capricorn, per se, would be a naturally very positive, nontroublesome thing to have (organized energy for accomplishment/success), barring other close hard aspects, of course, especially by outer planets.

the reset button is not the button to push when you are almost finished your long post! it is fun to have all these choices.. i have a choice to hit submit, 'reset' or cancel and close.. once i submit, i get a few choices too..
i'll keep it simple.
did a post that got lost yesterday for a different reason..
carol, if you can get hold of jim lewis 2 books, do so.. they are worth it.
cynthia - great way to present astrology in a simple manner.. i like it!
guilianis mars transit to saturn and neptune is also complicated by pluto.. i think neptune/pluto undermines the ground beneath him. jim lewis tends to think saturn is a very shadow planet that projects outward onto others until such time as the person reaches a level of maturity.. i think the same with the other outer planets.. i think they are hard to work with..
guilianis planetary lines have saturn (policemen) running thru washington, while neptune(actor/con artist) is running thru nyc.. if americans don't want a lighter mood, and they would like some sort of policemen/actor/con artist in office, i think guiliani is their man..
no way guiliani would have been able to exploit 9-11 so well if the neptune saturn lines weren't where they are.. i think the time for him is pretty close..
sorry for the quick post.. i had taken more time with the one that got 'reset'! i will now hit submit and don't care about minor spelling mistakes. therese is looking down on me over this and the psychological component of my comments.. oh well... sometimes the ghosts of the past have a say in the moment at hand..

S, you gave me a chuckle regarding all those button choices and possible "hazards" we have concerning them. I've been there, done that a few times myself. And thanks for the Jim Lewis book suggestion. I just ordered it--don't know why I never pursued that before.

it's not just reset. If you ever wonder why I didn't proof a post, the answer is when I have the post disappeared!
I believe Jim Lewis was the originator of the notion that Jupiter and Pluto bring publicity. It sure has worked for my clients. Sometimes it's as simple as being noticed by the boss...finally. Other times it is big publicity.
Carol, you are right, the happier the two planets are, the easier they are to integrate. What I've seen is usally Mars or SAturn dominates and the native needs a reminder to jumpstart the other planet. If Mars dominates, it's hard to slow down and make a plan etc.
After years of chasing aspects and techniques I'm a trues nuts and bolts astrologer. The race is getting harder for Giuliani. The weird thing, none of the leading Republicans have really good transits. For that matter, none of the Dems do either.. Obama gets the big push from Jupiter and Mars through the spring. After that who knows, but at least he has something going on. Edwards has those nice oppositions

"The weird thing, none of the leading Republicans have really good transits."
I only have a solar chart for Huckabee but he is enjoying a trine on the Solstice from Sun, Merc, Jupt. The Jupiter/Pluto conj has been trining his late Leo stuff too. When Pluto changes signs it will trine his Sun. On Super Tues, Feb 5, Sun opposes his Jupiter. Aug 24, 1955

Lwood yes, you are right, but after the early primaries he has the SAturn station on his stellium. That might not be so bad for a Republican....grins. He definitely has the tight trines of Jupiter to that stellium now. He'll have the Jupiter inconjunct Jupiter and trine his Mercury in the spring to help offset the Saturn station. Not an easy road, but better than the transits of some of the front runners.
I have said for months that this is a great race for dark horse candidate. Huckabee is certainly gaining momentum and breathing on the heels of his competition. It's exciting to me.
BTW, am I crazy or did you say long ago that he was pretty good as a governor?
Wouldn't it be something if at the end of it all it was Hucabee vs Obama? Yes, I know it's a long shot.

Rudy is done. He has almost zero chance now. The Saturn and Pluto transits are crushing. Saturn square transits can sink any campaign. People can overlook cheating on a spouse and past drug use. Mainly because many people have done both especially drugs. But when you put it on the city tab like Giuliani did, when you use the police to drive your mistress around, people tend to be less forgiving. Of course it is the sex scandal that is bringing him down, not doing business with terrorist supporters.
Rudy has many enemies. There were rumors Bloomberg leaked the Sex on the City scandal. The media has hardly touched the failed firefighter radios on 9/11 or the rescue worker breathing toxic air that he said was OK.
The Republican establishment is throwing him under the bus and shifting to Romney. Rudy has dropped to third in Florida polls. His National lead was only due to his being the so-called hero of 9/11. As more people know who more about him, the more they dislike him. So the GOP bigwigs don't want to chance it.

Patrick I think you are making assumptions that don't hold.
For one thing, while New Yorkers think they are at the center of the Universe the rest of America couldn't care less about New York or what happens there. In fact most of us avoid the place whenever possible what with the air and ground-traffic congestion. The food is horrible and too expensive, and while New Yorkers are smart and funny they seem to have no sense of humor about themselves.
Giuliani is not running as a New Yorker and only his enemies are bringing up 9/11. Has he lost Iowa and NH? Probably both. Does it matter? No.
So you are left with Huckabee and Romney, and I would suggest that the religious element is a death strike, especially for Huckabee. Not a chance that Americans will vote for yet another nutcase who talks to God before making important decisions like wasting TRILLIONS of dollars killing hundreds of thousands of brown people in order to, um, protect their freedom ...
It is quite funny to listen to Rudy talking about "our President" down there in Florida without mentioning the cretin by name. Who wants to even say the name G W Bush anymore?
Anyway, I think Rudy has legs and all this is simply plan "B"

i am noticing a trend on all the threads these days... talking politics and very little astrology.. i suppose it has to do with the fact it is easier to talk politics then it is to go into details involving astrology and it is political season... another option is when someone actually posts something astrological to consider commenting on it.. that might get a bit of astrology talk going too!
huckabee another pluto mars in leo type, lol.. these folks seem to gravitate towards power and seek it out in a political zone.. we have 3, and maybe more candidates with this combo... i find that fascinating from an astro pov..

fwiw oprah winfrey has a mars/pluto square as well.. she is backing obama who has a seperation of mars/pluto in virgo of 15 degrees.. this would be considered quite a wide conj, but it is interesting non the less.

mccain has mars pluto separated by about 14 degrees, another very wide conjunction..

Pat, Terri, Jan, Nimish, Kathy and I wish you all the prosperity and happiness for the coming New Year. I've enjoyed the astrological points from all of you and your learned opinions. As a few of you have mentioned, politics and religion seem to bring out our passions. We appreciate how the forum has evolved to good discussions and far less personal attacks. We trust that this forum has become your forum. I know you will all enjoy our next newsmaker this coming Thursday. We are commemorating and honoring Francis McEvoy who recently passed this past week and has been long time contributor to ADB of birth certificates and knowledge. She recently gave us a valuable birth certificate and we will feature this NewsMaker.

Hi s - Mars/Pluto appears to be active in the charts of most of the candidates:
Bill Richardson: 11/15/47 - his chart is available on ADB. He has a close Saturn/Mars conjunction in Leo at 22 and 23 degrees. His Pluto is 14 Leo, so a wide conjunction - he and Hillary are only about 2 1/2 weeks apart in age.
Joe Biden: 11/20/42, Scranton, PA - no time, but he has Mars square Pluto 12Sco41 - 7Leo13Rx. I actually like him the best after Hillary, but as I mentioned earlier on - his shot was about 16 or 20 years ago (I'm not sure which) when he was caught in a lie about his college standings or something like that. He was the rising star and then just sank. Too bad.
Chris Dodd: 5/27/44, Willimantic, CT - no time - Stellium in Leo: NN 0:21, Mars 2:55, Pluto 6:43, Moon (depends on tob - with noon it's 10:36), Jupiter 19:54. Also has a Sun/Uranus Conj 6Gem12/8Gem45.
Dennis Kucinich: 10/8/46, Cleveland, OH - no time - Mars 9Sco33 - Pluto 13Leo03 (Saturn is conjunct @ 7Leo14). He has a Sco stellium - Merc 1Sco13, Jup 2Sco46, the Mars @ 9Sco33 and Venus at the other end of the sign 26Sco06.
Romney has Mars quincunx Pluto.
So, whomever gets the nod, it would appear that Mars/Pluto is going to be a strong influence. In each instance the aspects between those planets is challenging.
Kind of goes back to what I was saying about the Mars/Pluto opposition really being the aspect that opens the year and will someone color everything that happens. This is not going to be a peaceful presidency, whomever gets the nod.

S - I wonder at the fact that Obama's Mars and Pluto, although in the same sign, aren't really conjunct - 15 or so degrees separate them. Still, they are conjunct by sign.

Just one request dear Penelope and s, can we please stop re-arranging the laws of astrology to suit our personal preferences.
An orb of 15 degrees does not a conjunction make. Indulge me, it's Christmas ...

TO ALL THE FOLKS AT ADB- thanks for the kind note and to all of you too for supporting this place called astrodatabank.. it is much appreciated.. ALL THE BEST FOR 2008 TO YOU AND ALL THE POSTERS HERE..
penelope thanks for the overview with regard to mars/pluto..
wayne, no problem.. you have to admit it is an interesting observation though that so many of the candidates running have these planets either strongly in aspect, or in what would be a very wide conjunction..
if you study the idea of planets in containment, the connection between planets that are side by side one another are considered to colour the nature of the planet in front of the other one.. both obama and mccain have mars 14 - 15 degrees further along in the zodiac with nothing inbetween the mars and pluto.. there seems to be something to the idea of planets in containment.. check a few of my posts on the oprah winfrey thread for more info on this idea.

Wayne - I said that it wasn't truly a conjunction because of the wide orb, (I tend to prefer smaller orbs, but will bend the rules from time to time based on the planetary energies) - just a conjunction by sign. While I'm not as studied as some in the art and science of astrology, aren't there some who would consider planets in the same sign to be conjunct? Isn't that an older model? I see that "s" has already addressed this with you.
What I'm finding fascinating is the resonance of these two planets in the candidates' charts and the New Year's chart (as well as the charts of the Iowa Caucus and New Hampshire Primary. In addition, the New Year's Mars is conjunct the 9/11 Moon. I'm still pondering what all of this might mean besides Joe Biden's comment about Rudy Giuliani's sentences all having a noun and verb and 9/11 in them (it's one of the top 10 quotes of 2007).
The Mars/Pluto connections tend to be stronger in the Democrat charts. Oprah's square is close to exact, so supports the weaker contact in Obama's chart. This suggests that her desire for him to win, might be ultimately stronger than his - she actually has more at stake, I think. He is young enough to lose this and come back again to fight another day. While she's putting more on the line, I think.
Again, just mulling.
By the way - I was just advised that ADB has the Kucinich chart on the right side index.

Well Merry Mithra to all anyway and just a mild bah humbug because it's all a crock, but anyway ...
Penelope, I believe the ancients used to consider that aspects ocurred by sign rather than degree. I also think that Vedic astrologers use sign as the demarcation of aspects, so that any planet in Leo say is in trine to any planet in Aries.
I follow the classical school of Kepler et al and believe that there are actually orbs to aspects, and the largest allowable would be 10 degrees in the case of Sun and Moon. Personal experence has forced me to reconsider wider orbs, so that now I allow only 8 degrees for an opposition, 7 degrees for a trine or square, 5 for a sextile, and 1 degree for the minor aspects. Frankly, the fewer aspects the better has been my experience.
So while a sign or House might bring the planets into some sort of cohesive action, the conjunction would still only apply as an "aspect" (I know some believe it is the color black) if within strict orbs of under 8 degrees.
As for why there are so many contenders with Mars/Pluto, I have questioned why so many contenders has Mercury/Saturn?

Hi Wayne,
I'll check out the Mercury/Saturn. Was concentrating on the New Year's chart and saw the connection. Another thing to look at is the T-Square of Saturn opposition Uranus squared by Venus - this aspect is in the first two primaries and also appears on election day.

Mars/Pluto aspects sometimes indicate sexual abuse, as in Oprah's case. They like power especially in Leo. They usually really really like sex. Often a bit on the kinky side, even to the point of BDSM. They can try to control people with sex, especially the Taurus and Scorpio Mars. They can be vindictive if you cross them, especially if you break off a relationship. But if there is a strong spiritual, idealistic component, they will wield power in positive ways. Mars in Leo have a strong animal magnetism and tend to be seducer. With Pluto even more so.

Well you know I have a Mars Pluto conjunction (3 degrees) in Leo in the 10th. Mars is exactly on the MC, which is only one reason why I happen to be so lovable.
So in defense of the downtrodden Mars/Pluto people out there, and we are indeed the victims of modern astrology, we are not crazed monsters consumed with ambition and wishing to tyrannize the world. Well OK some of us are, but there's good and bad in all of us ...
Seriously, Mars and Pluto in conjunction in my personal experience rarely is violent or even moody. At the same time, the very few times I have lost my temper in life I was most certainly capable of murder. The last time, a couple of years ago, I was mugged on a street in Moscow, and I simply "lost it". I could easily have killed both muggers with my bare hands - I felt an almost superhuman strength well up within me and I knew I would kill them both - and apparently they picked that up that vibe and ran off.
Other than that the conjunction just gives a strong personality and a somewhat in-your-face personality that refuses to be intimidated. I think it can be a just a tad opinionated too sometimes.

politics aside, Mars and Pluto seem to get along really well. Pluto enhances Mars' drive for whatever he is going for. I don't find them to be victims or perpetrators but I have found them to be tenacious and driven. In my experience, they like competition and so that might be why they show up in politicians' charts as well as other competitive venues.
Merry Christmas to all...even those who tickle my Mercury Mars. Now there is an annoying combination if I ever saw one: Rile up Mars and Mercury's mouth goes off. smiles

Hi Wayne, that's been my experience with Mars/Pluto as well. My Lurker Friend just commented that it gives people "chutzpah," and there's nothing wrong with that. She suggested that a lot of it was needed to run for president and she's correct.
What I find troublesome is the suggestion that the planets and the aspects automatically confer some sort of character flaw (or benefit - although those are seldom mentioned). It isn't as if someone can magically change their chart. It's about how the energies are used.
Since Giuliani is running for president and is still a top contender - the voting has yet to begin, and the majority of people don't make up their minds until the last minute anyway. However he achieved this stature, he did achieve it and I suspect he thinks he's a pretty good guy.
With Hillary, I have to tell you, I still don't get why people think she's bad news. It isn't just because I like her (always have from the first time I saw her campaigning for Bill) - I also admire her because I appreciate the way she has lived her life - even the bad boy husband. Many, many women are and have been and will be in the same situation and would do the same. Her situation was simply more public. She has accomplished so much and has spent much of her life in public service working to help others.
In any event, my feeling, based on personal experience with a number of challenging aspects, is that they often make you work harder simply because if you didn't you would really be miserable.
Someone with Mars/Pluto who didn't strive to achieve difficult goals would be miserable and likely would strike out and that may be where the danger lies. The people running for office here have figured out how to deal with their need for power, achievement, success - whatever you want to call it. I doubt that any of them are red button pushers.
Although, I have to say that Giuliani would be the closest to acting out in that way, based on his response to the Arab money after 9/11. He does tend to shoot himself in the foot on occasion.
Just looked at the chart for the California Primary 2/5/08. ASC @ 8PM PST is 19Virgo - Hillary's Moon conjunct the DESC. MC is 18Gem15 with Mars @ 24Gem19 conjunct her Uranus (25Gem56).
There's a whole lot of Aquarius going on, however: Moon 4:45, Chiron 15:52, Sun16:43, Mercury 18:03Rx, Neptune 21:31 and NN 28:25.
The Mercury always makes these things dicey, doesn't it? Expect the unexpectedy and prepare to have to do something over again.
So, in terms of the Dems - Biden, Kucinich and Clinton are getting the squares and Dodd and Obama are getting the oppositions.
Edwards, however is getting the trines, with Venus and Jupiter in Cappy opposing his Uranus.
Tried to post this 3 times this morning - I swear Mars Rx is the new Mercury Rx - only worse.

cynthia I think the problem with Mars conjunct Mercury is that Mars over-energizes the planet at the wrong time. There is a tendency to be snappish and sharp-tongued, irritable in the way nervous people often are, and this is especially the case with the square.
Mars Pluto in conjunction however seems to work well under the surface. It cannot be intimidated. I am not especially courageous although I have never backed down from any potentially combative situation, and I have been in some very dangerous situations and felt no fear whatsoever.
So Mars Pluto seems to act only rarely, although when it does act watch out because there is no compromise with this conjunction ...

wayne I find Mars Mercury is impulsive but gets over it quickly. Mars Pluto can be obsessive and wants to win. The latter is more "successful."

Also, regarding the added power of Mars/Pluto vs. Mars/Mercury: With Mars/Pluto (per se), it is the personal in combination with the collective or masses, whereas with Mars/Mercury it's all personal.

carol, you are right again! Mars with Pluto may be interested in imposing their will on the masses. Mars Pluto is clear and direct: Let's do it my way and you'll be better off. Could be right or wrong, but it is clear and direct. Perhaps that is why is appears in the chart of so many running for powerful office.

Cynthia, I think the Mars/Pluto collective thing goes a lot deeper than just "Let's do it my way and you'll be better off." The thing is, Pluto endows Mars with an inherent collective power from the get-go because "my way" (as you put it) is actually OUR WAY or the current cultural way or idea. As Steven Forrest said in "The Inner Sky": "Through it [Pluto] we EMBODY the visions and terrors of humanity. We represent them...and in so doing, power is invested in us by the culture as a whole..."
But as you said, that power CAN be abused, such as Hitler starting out representing Germany's desire to resurrect and rebuild Germany after WWI, but then becoming/revealing the monster he was, consumed by his own personal vanity and power motives. Gandhi, on the other hand, always represented the highest, purest response to Pluto, always for the good of the collective, devoid of any desire for personal gain or power. But again, for good or evil, when we speak from the depths of Pluto, we start out from somewhere outside our own personal selves.

Gandhi had Cenus and Mars opposite Pluto. He used the PLuto for the greater good. Jerry Falwell had Mars square Pluto. He wanted to impose his will. He was one of worst bigots of the last century.

Here is a good Mars Pluto quote, reptilian type: "What we don't see is that freedom is not a concept in which people can do anything they want, be anything they can be. Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do." March 1994 by Rudy Giuliani. He was recently on the cover of American Conservative in a fascist uniform. Remember his Mars Pluto conjunction squares Mercury in Taurus in the dark 8th house. The paleo cons don't like him. Evangelical voters are not going for him. Richard Viguerie says he would destroy the Republican party. When Pluto was opposite his Saturn it was revealed he was carrying on an extramarital affair and putting it on the cities tab. He is in 4th in New Hampshire down 10 points since October, 5th in Iowa, 3rd in Michigan and South Carolina.He still leads in Florida and Nevada but much less. His national poll lead is gone. He is done, toast, he will be gone early February. Huckabee and McCain took votes from him. I did not look at McCain because I thought he was done. But his transits are pretty good. Huckabee has peaked. He was boosted by the Jupiter transits, but he says Afghanistan is on Pakistan's eastern border. The corporate Republican establish hates Huck. Republicans have a certain order of succession. If Romney looses the first 2 events he will be in serious trouble. Astrologically it looks like a toss up between McCain and Romney. The only serious prediction I can make is Rudy is going out the door. Look at the transits.

i had mentioned the uranus/saturn opposition for nov 4 2008 and thought this aspect might have some bearing on the 2008 election... i got to looking at the transits for this date again and thought about how central the mars/neptune square was in the chart as well... then their is the sun/pluto 46 degree aspect... i thought, i wonder who has a mars/neptune in their chart that is more pronounced then not.. while hillary and guiliani, along with ron paul and a few others have sextiles and etc between these 2 planets, the only person i could find with a hard aspect between mars/neptune was obama with a 45 aspect..
obama seems to be the one that would most reflect that aspect for nov 4/08... not sure what that means, but thought it was interesting.. of course jupiter is in cap as is the moon for nov 4/08 for most of the day.. that would seem to favour a conservative.. mccain has moon in cap.. i wrote some comments on mccain thread earlier tonight for anyone interested. not sure he gets the nod.. i am still leaning towards guiliani at this point, but mccains chart has some promise.
not sure what to make of the mars/neptune square in the election chart being so prominent and the sun/pluto 45... something dishonest - vote rigging, or manipulation would seem to be possible and probably wouldn't come out til later.. maybe some collusion between some of the leading candidates?? something is not what it seems with those type aspects.. i hadn't been looking at them closely as i was mostly thinking about the exact saturn/uranus opp as i had mentioned some time ago.. maybe i should look at helios instead, lol.

I think it means that I'm going to be elected :). I have natal Mars square Neptune and the Saturn/Uranus opposition will be on my Venus with transitting Venus squaring. Pluto will be square my Mercury and on my SN; the Moon will be conjunct my Mercury at some point during the day. Jupiter will be opposing my Saturn and Neptune will be opposing my Vertex, with Mercury conjunct my MC. Sun trine Mars and Mars creating a grand trine with Venus and Saturn.
Too bad I don't have that Mars/Pluto and didn't enter politics when I was a kid, it appears that I have more transits than any of the candidates (except Hillary). LOL.

Seriously...
The Mars/Neptune square affects Hillary's chart. Mars is on her Mercury and square her Saturn with the Neptune square Mercury and opposing her Saturn. Venus is trine the Saturn, however. As mentioned before, her Uranus completes the Grand Mutable Cross created with the Saturn/Uranus/Venus T-square. Neptune is trine Uranus. Jupiter sextile her Moon and trines the ASC in the 2:18AM chart.
I hadn't really looked at Giuliani's chart in a while and it appears that in some way or another he's taking a hit with the Mars/Pluto opposition. To me, at least, and I mentioned this before, the whole 9/11 thing is go in his favor. His Saturn/MC is on the 9/11 Moon.
As far as the Mars/Neptune square - his Jupiter/Moon conjuntion forms a t-square - if you want to through a wider orb into it (sorry, Wayne), then you have a Fixed Grand Cross by adding his Venus.
Looking at the chart as a whole and comparing it with Hillary's in terms of activity, there isn't as much going on.
With Romney, he has Mars applying to his Moon/Jupiter, but stil 5+ degrees away. Mars is trine his Sun - with Venus square - this has Uranus conjunct his Sun with Saturn opposing, but not exactly. Jupiter is quincunx his Uranus. Moon will be applying to and conjuncting his MC and Venus. the day after the election. There is activity, but not in terms of exact aspects, which I would expect.
McCain will have Uranus on his Saturn with Uranus opposing and Venus square. I don't tend to use Chiron much because I don't know that much about it, but Chiron would fill in the transitting T-Square.
McCain's Saturn is on Hillary's Moon, which suggests a relationship that needs to be worked out - old business. They also share that Mars in 12/13 Leo, so the transitting SN hits both of them with that aspect.
The Mars/Neptune square seems to be friendlier to him - Mars sextile his Venus and Neptune trine Chiron. The planet seems to suit him considering the wounded healer interepretation of Chiron might suggest. POW comes back home to take care of his country yet again.
I'm still up in the air on who will get the nod for the Reps, but feel it's between McCain and Giuliani based on what I just wrote, plus my intuitive relating of McCain to Saturn and Giuliani to Uranus in the opposition that will be present all year. The Venus is there in January and then shows up again in November.
Right now, I'm leaning toward McCain more than Giuliani, although I think that's where the standoff is going to be - not with the Dems.
Also posted on the Hillary thread.

penelope, i am not drawing any big conclusion from the mars/neptune square in the nov 4/08 chart.. it is exact in the chart and i was curious about it.. the 'war for oil' imagery fits with mars/neptune as well.. perhaps that will be a part of what folks look at when voting next november...
i do think the saturn/uranus opp is the big celestial event of 2008 - a choice between old and new, or some attempt to incorporate both.. i haven't heard any republicans coming out with anything new, but guiliani seems to be the most unorthodox of the group, (outside of ron paul) so your analogy of mccain/guiliani as reflecting this duo makes sense to me... if that be the case, i would say the republicans are going to go with the old rather then the new - mccain in particular..
going back to the mars/neptune, i am not approaching this in an orthodox way which might explain what appears to be some confusion over my comment. i am just bouncing astro ideas around.. i am looking for patterns and seeing what i can find.. a chart where saturn sticks out, or uranus sticks out in the democrat camp that would have to be obama and hillary... i think the democrats do want change.. an interesting observation from looking at president charts is what appears to be the greater number of presidents with uranus prominent.. both guiliani and obama have it in the same sign as their sun, guiliani closer to his sun then obamas... i mostly get the saturn/jupiter conj standing out for obama, but that is a shortened view on him which i do from time to time just for fun too...
one way i think about astrology is thru the use of elements... does this chart come across as more fire/water, or air/earth for example? just doing that sometimes can reveal a lot that all the rest of the chart won't talk about...not that their isn't all these other astro messages too, but that narrowing down something is fun to do and informative i believe..

Penelope you cannot alter the laws of astrology ... that will cost you five Hail Mary's on your knees and your Christmas present which I just ate anyway ...
Seriously, don't find an aspect by enlarging the orbs just because you want to find that aspect. It's not science and it's not astrology.

guiliani isn't looking very good at the moment.. ron paul outdid him in iowa yesterday... ron paul got 3x as many votes as guiliani... i'm not counting g out completely but it looks bleak for him at the moment.. that t mars/pluto opp is on his midheaven line..
maybe the mars retro in cancer/gemini is hard on mars/pluto in leo types?

Giuliana didn't campaign in Iowa because he figured he wouldn't get any votes - that he got some was a miracle. Look who won there - the anti-Giuliani. He also did not spend much in New Hampshire because Romney is likely a shoo-in there because he's governor of the next state over and is betting on Florida to help him get the nom. He's talked about this over and over.
Wayne, wondered where my present was....
As far as the orbs - Mars is applying to the square and the orb is about 7 degrees, so not that far out of line. You argued with Marjorie Orr a few years back about Tom Cruise, so I figure I'm in good company.

Penelope I only argue what I know for sure is true, and I know for sure that allowing 14 degrees as an orb is just not anything I've ever seen to be true. The very largest orb might be for Solar aspects to the Ruler, and even then only 9 or 10 degrees at the outside is allowable.
Simply put, in my opinion and experience the fewer aspects the better. I cut em' down drastically.
Yes it was a nice chocolate cake that I shared with my cat Fluffy and Fluffy thanks you for your sacrifice.

Zayin L.Cohen 1/7/2008 I am going to ship the Astro-Speak and get right to the part that I do best. Make correct predictions. Here goes. N.H.GOP: McCain wins it. N.H.DEMS Obama wins it.
Mich. GOP: McCain wins it. Mich.DEMS:Obama wins it.
Nev.GOP:Romney wins it. Nev.DEMS:Obama wins it.
S.C.GOP:McCain wins it. S.C.DEMS: Obama wins it.
GOP NOD.final McCain? DEMS NOD.final:Obama gets it.
Hillary nor Rudy gets the nod.
Zayin L Cohen 7 JAN 2008 3:19 AM EST

Zayin, You omitted Super Tues when the large states hold primaries. How come?
Penelope, the reason Giuliani didn't campaign in Iowa is because Iowa has a long history and is quite susceptible to fringie movements like Huckabucks. Keep in mind the "most popular president of the 20th Century", Ronald Raygun, lost in Iowa in 1980. Pat Robertson came in 2nd (R) in Iowa in 1988. That worked out real well, eh. It's a good place for unknowns and fringies to break out and perhaps rake in some bucks for their underfunded campaigns.

Hi LWood - I realize that about Giuliani. He probably wouldn't have gotten one vote!
Right now it's 7:22PM in LA - so 10:22PM in NH. Clinton is ahead with 39% of the vote - Obama has 36% - Edwards is giving his third place finish speech.

AP and CNN have called Hillary Clinton the winner in New Hampshire. Her lead has been consistently 3-4% since the polls closed. Yeah!

Rudy has been 3rd or 4th in National polls. Florida is a 4 way dead heat, with clear momentum for McCain who leads in one poll.

I wondered if the reason Giuliani was not really running was that he might be working with an astrologer.
Perhaps he has someone looking at transiting Saturn square his natal Sun and natal Saturn with transiting retrograde Mars. Maybe the astrologer said
"Rudy, Rudy Rudy....Mars is not you friend and he really doesn't do well with Saturn. Wait until he gets going to take off yourself. By that time, voters will be ready to hear more from you or perhaps they will be tired of the way things have or have not been going. With Saturn on your MC and Mars direct over it, you'll get more attention and have more energy yourself."
Of course, what Giuliani does on Super Tuesday has yet to be seen, but he should get plenty of attention by entering later and coming on strong as Mars starts to charge forward.
I will be very surprised if Giuliani makes it beyond February. he just doesn't have enough powerful transits to suggest success... but I've been surprised before.
anyone notice that Huckabee and McCain have Saturn crossing back and forth on their Suns? Giulini has and will continue to have it square his Sun

Cynthia, on New Hampshire, Giuliani was there more than everyone except Romney. He was leading in Iowa, New Hampshire, and Michigan months ago. His people were spinning about him waiting till Florida. He just had name recognition before and people were not aware of his record in New York City. The Kerik indictment, and the news he spent taxpayer money on his mistress, now wife really sunk him. The war wing is going for McCain and the corporate ing is going for Romney. I am going through Saturn, Neptune and Pluto transits and I am laying low. I can't imagine doing something really risky right now.

Patrick I agree with you about Saturn. Did you notice how many of the Reps running are having big Saturn transits? I went over them on the Romney thread.
You are wise to lay low, I find that Saturn transits make most folks feel very vulnerable and mortal in a palpable way. Saturn sensitizes us to what "is" rather like an accountant making you look at the books.
It is very helpful to do projects that have tangilbe results. Something as simple as cleaning out a closet or even a drawer...putting "things" in order to make your life more simple is very therapeutic. It takes them out of your list of responsibilities and puts them in the hands of folks who will use them. It is very helpful during SAturn transits to clean out the clutter in life.
caveat: use this information if it works for you, I'm not selling an agenda of any kind ,,,yes I expect to be told again that this is not in the textbooks, but it is what I have experienced and found in practice is very helpful when someone is going through Saturn transits.

Yes Cynthia, That is what I an doing. I am in between jobs and doing taxes for work, seems good to wait till Mars and Mercury are direct. Saturn is conjunct Obama's Pluto and square Edwards Jupiter. Saturn is almost exact square on RG's Sun for Florida. That is winner take all. He is 3rd in Florida, statistical tie for 2nd, and way behind McCain in New York.

lwood - that link you left on guiliani is absolutely frightening.. to think someone like him could have a chance at the presidency is like wishing for another cheney to lead the country for the next 4 years... i was curious to get mark greens birthdata in light of his ability to get under guilianis skin... it is mar 15 1945.. 2 things stick out in his chart crossed to guilianis - mars at 22 aquarius -opp g's moon/jupiter conj and sun near g's 7th house - square his natal saturn... i think green had g's number, but with such a tyrant as guiliani one would have to be careful to pick ones fights...

>>> ...grudge-carrying Giuliani and his bully Mars-Pluto in this NYT article. It reveals the depths of revenge that Mars-Pluto is so capable of ... <<<
Lwood this is incorrect.
Mars conjunction Pluto is neither a bully nor is it revengeful in itself (this is more the realm of Venus/Mars/Saturn).
Certainly it is impossible to intimidate Mars Pluto and those who try will meet with fierce resistance. Note that Hillary also has this conjunction, and anyone who tries to bully her will probably regret it ...
I am speaking from experience as I have the conjunction in Leo in the 10th.
It seems to give a strong and decided personality, with small patience for the incompetent or the indecisive or weak. It has considerable courage and strength of will, and in Leo gives a strong and sometimes over-powering personality, and is of course supremely self-confident, and with afflictions to the point of arrogance.
It seems to bring violence and tension into the life. I have personally been in about a dozen car accidents and have never even been bruised. I have also been alone as the only white guy in some of the most dangerous parts of America and England, East Central Houston, Compton and Detroit, Brixton and Whitechapel.

wayne, i tend to agree with you...mars/pluto isn't enough in itself, especially a conjunction... in guilianis chart it squares his mercury in the 8th and i think that is where the trouble lies... this guy had access to certian levers of power behind the scenes and his vanity as expressed via the moon/jupiter conj and leo planets generally coalesced with the square from the mercury to all these leo planets to push him to seek an underhanded 8th house type response.. mercury is an important planet in his chart as it covers his sun and rising sign if virgo is rising... i think the guy has maniacal designs on power and it comes out of his mercury more then it does his mars/pluto... mars/pluto just helps it along... my 2c's.

mercury= pluto/jupiter.

also, mercury = mars/moon
mercury ties all the leo planets together..

s, that Mercury Mars square is pretty wide for me and while it is pulled in by Pluto it's not an important aspect I think other than exacerbate a tendency for him to be firm and decided and somewhat impatient.
This is not an evil chart though ... I don't see too much greed or the willingness to sacrifice others on the alter of personal ambition, which I do see (both) in Hillary's and Obama's chart. In fact I think the guy is an idealist and visionary, although he hasn't managed to communicate this very well so far.
He has serious problems with Republicans. The Right wing don't like him and don't trust him, but they also hate McCain and Huckabee, so Florida will probably go to Romney with McCain as second. Then, my boy, Rudy, will probably have to quit.

wayne, i agree the mars/mercury is too wide to be considered a square, until you see the moon/jupiter and especially the moon/mars midpoint at 13 leo, which brings it all together... instead of thinking of these as separate planets, one sees a connection with all the leo planets to that singleton planet in taurus/earth... his vanity has gotten the better of him and like humpty dumpty he is set for a fall... the chart has some flash and pizazz, but a fragile ego that doesn't like to be crossed as well...
everyone and everything is ganging up on him in his race for the presidency... he rubbed a few too many the wrong way and they are casting long dark shadows over his horoscope at this time, like a karmic pluto that has been wronged.. i do think the mercury in the 8th speaks to this, as well as the pluto transits at present... i have maintained he has a mercury/pluto square all along without looking at it as closely as i have this past few days... he is seeking power for the wrong reasons... looks like he isn't going to get it...

wayne - read this article http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/22/us/politics/22giuliani.html?hp
and tell me where in his chart the desire to seek revenge is... clearly that is what is going on with this guy.. saturn/neptune square on the angles??? something isn't right with this dude.

s, I am aware of mid-points of course, but I am very careful as to how they should be applied. While calculated, they are in a sense "imaginary points" much as are the Parts, and the old Hyleg (remember that?) ...
These days most of us only use the Part of Fortune, but there are dozens of Parts calculated based on the Planets and Ascendant. I have found the Pars Fortuna (I do so like to sprinkle in a little Latin whenever I can, and you can take that any way you wish) does have some substance.
So I'm not big on mid-points at all UNLESS a planet falls on that mid-point. I cannot see an aspect to an imaginary point, that is my issue. In the same way I don't think so- called composite charts are worth much.

s, I read the article and of course considered the source ... The New York Times ... probably the most liberal rag in the US.
Look, I don't know if you've been to New York, but that is one rough town, a brilliant one and incredibly vibrant and infinitely interesting with its nooks and crannies of bizarre culture, but it must be a nightmare to run that city.
So is Rudy one tough, rough and tumble hard-hitting street-fighter? Of course he is. Is he a mean Mr. Potter, ever scheming and plotting as Machiavelli's Prince has to? Probably. But I think he's a big thinker, not petty in a giddy girly way (which the NYT always is) - if he's going to get revenge on you it will be with a machine gun not 20 lashes with a wet noodle.

NY Times Liberal? The paper that was cheerleading the rush to war? If you don't like the source Wayne, it does not mean it is not true. You can look through archives of all the New York media and find stories like that. There are numerous instances on video and audio, where G is abusive and hysterical. The man hates the bill of rights and would have at war constantly. The record shows he is a thug. Why were his approval ratings so low at the end of his term? Mars Pluto conj. in Leo, arrogant Moon Jupiter conj in Leo, brutal Saturn conjunct Betelgeuse square the phony Neptune rising. The man is as big a phony as Romney. His ideas are the free market, which does not exist; and take the fight to the terrorists-totally meaningless. He appeals to the reptilian brain. The apple did not fall far from the tree. Name on instance where he is a "Big Thinker". Like putting the command center in the WTC after it was attacked in 1993? Like getting a no bid contract with Motorola for radios which did not work, which caused the deaths of 150 firefighters? His security credentials are a total joke. Lying about the air around ground zero being ok and then not fighting for health benefits for uninsured volunteer recovery workers with respiratory disease??

wayne, we see it differently with midpoints...i am with the cosmobiologists on using hard aspects to midpoints.. as i see it astrology is one big abstraction- a symbolic language open to many interpretations, some more relevant then others..
i did notice the article was from the nytimes.. i was thinking they might have had more affinity for guiliani seeing he was the major in that town...it might be a challenge to run it, but you would think he would have been busy enough getting something done to not waste his time seeking revenge.. apparently not..
i lived in nyc for about 5 months back in 82.. i really like the city...

s, we really differ on this point.
Astrology to me is NOT an abstraction but a cultural construct built on centuries of observation by geniuses, even though they may have been considered mad or half mad at their time.
Astrology does NOT incorporate illusory points in space but rather tangible, measurable cycles of tangible measurable objects. It then applies time-told values to those objects.
I suppose some astronomers would argue that the Ascendant is imaginary, and therefore all House sub-divisions are, and the only argument I have is "test it".
But to me astrology relies on real things in real cycles, including the Fixed Stars, as seen from the point of birth.
I just have a problem with calculated points. They don't work and they never have and those who use them are forever predicting the past, and forever finding some reason or another why their prediction didn't work.
I do not argue against the possibility that a planet exactly on the mid-point between two others, even if those two others are not in traditional aspect, has some relationship with the two, probably neutral, as the brilliant astrologer C E O Carter inferred, well this might be the case.
But to suggest that imaginary points, or calculated points, actually give or receive to me is neither proven nor is it logical.

wayne, what do you think ebertin or the hamburg school were doing when they came up with the idea and use of midpoints??? they were basing it on "observation" not on something irrelevant or unprovable... i have used them myself and i know they work in what i have observed... what can i say? it is the same with your comments on chiron on the bloomberg thread... i never gave it any attention prior to this year when something in my life which was quite significant was clearly tied to it.. i think if you look at the transits to bilawal bhuttos chart you will see its importance as well.. i commented on it on that thread, but i am not sure you are open minded about this, but rather want to come across as a close minded crank.. it is fun to be a crank, but i don't think you have taken the time to study midpoints, or chiron or asteroids which is why you are so full of opinions... you haven't done any work, but are instead guided by an opinion..
i like you wayne and i enjoy your posts, but i was thinking about this and now i have gotten around to telling you.. hope you take it in stride! my views on midpoints and chiron are backed by my personal experience directly.. perhaps you could say it was coming from some other (more classical) part of the chart but that is not what i see.. and in all of this, i agree astrology is not an abstraction.. it is for those who don't take the time to study it...

interesting article which suggests who one of guilianis backers is - rupert murdoch -
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/01/25/2008-01-25_judith_regan_settles_100m_lawsuit_with_n.html

s, I have actually considered mid-points a lot in charts and have decided that imaginary points simply do not aspect other imaginary points. Please consider what I have said there.
However, if a planet is exactly mid-point between two planets even if there is no traditional aspect, I would say that highlights that planet in some significant way. C E O Carter said it was probably neutral, and he was decidedly neutral on mid-points.
As for being close-minded, well I always wonder how anyone could know if they are open or close-minded. How does anyone know for sure? I certainly don't. I mean, how do you know it is not you who is close-minded by refusing to accept the truth ...
My understanding of astrology is based on what I know. I have studied mid-points and asteroids, not intensely though. The former work in a limited sense, as I have alluded to. I have found no actual or theoretical reason that confirms that asteroids work, and no one seems willing to explain precisely the dynamic by which asteroids work in astrology.
I would love believe asteroids work since Chiron makes an exact sextile to my Sun from the Second House, and I could always use another player in my Second House, but I can't because they don't.

wayne, i am not sure about asteroids.. i haven't really studied them to see if they have any relevance.. some astrologers say they do... as for chiron, i find it has some relevance to me personally in my limited exposure to it... i agree with you about open/closed mindedness...who is to say? sometimes others can be helpful in pointing out our own nature.. most of the time it is unnecessary and dangerous to do so.. my impression of you is that if you can't figure it out logically, then it is not relevant... a lot of things aren't logical...you might want to let something else guide you, as hard as that might be for an air sign.. you seem to put logic on a pedestal and compare everything with it.. that would be the equivalent of someone who does the same with superstition.. we all have different gods and it appears yours is logic and intellect... it becomes your jail sentence too..
i was using an analogy of chiron to a sliver.. when one has one they want to get it out from under their skin.. it may not be a big thing, but it is a source of discomfort and that is how i view chiron.. chiron in the 2nd and perhaps finances are a source of discomfort for you! chiron is the wounded healer and teacher... here you are on adb giving financial advice, being a teacher of sorts.. i just read your post on hillary thread on who pays taxes, another good post from you on the general nature of finances and i do think the chiron in sag on the 2nd fits! now, i don't want you to believe anything you aren't ready to... if i can find a quote where john lennon said it, i will find it, but until then this post is as far as i can go with making a suggestion you keep an open mind to what others may or may not have discovered... regards james aka s

s, well yes I do believe that things that are not logical are well, not logical. I think my hero, after John Lennon, is Mr. Spock. (Oh and Stevie Ray Vaughn.)
In any case, I always consider mid-points, but I rarely find any real effects from them that cannot be explained by traditional means.
As for Chiron in the 2nd, and the only aspect it has is sextile Sun, well I have no idea what it is supposed to mean other than giving advice. I've been fortunate financially so I don't think it's a negative, but it should mean more than giving advice.
But I'm an opionated loud-mouth anyway and I would give advice on anything to anyone, not that I would ever take it. I see myself as like Ricky from The Trailer Park Boys, without the pepperoni. (Never seen in the US but a great piece of Canadian TV)

Boy, it's hard having to keep track of all these threads and figuring out which one to answer on.
Wayne, did you notice that on the Bloomberg thread that "Libra" called your Chiron placement correctly without knowing your chart?

guiliani is toast. pluto transit crushed him.

now all he has to do is throw his support to mccainiac for a possible vp position.